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Phagocyte
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01 Aug 2008, 7:55 pm

I think it's economically unfeasible and a waste of money. Are there really that many transgenders to warrant this?


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skafather84
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01 Aug 2008, 7:56 pm

Malsane wrote:
Slowmutant, you are simply factually incorrect. Some people are intersexed. It is not the norm, but it happens. Most intersexed individuals are 'corrected' at birth. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



why put corrected in quotes?



slowmutant
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01 Aug 2008, 8:01 pm

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I know it happens, but it's a an anomaly. Human beings were not meant to have both testes and ovaries. It makes no biological sense, needless to say. A congenital birth-defect is not something on which one can pass moral judgment, but that happens anyway, doesn't it?



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01 Aug 2008, 8:02 pm

Quote:
why put corrected in quotes?


Because by "corrected" Maltane meant "mutilated." I think the connotation was negative.



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01 Aug 2008, 8:03 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Malsane wrote:
Slowmutant, you are simply factually incorrect. Some people are intersexed. It is not the norm, but it happens. Most intersexed individuals are 'corrected' at birth. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



why put corrected in quotes?
Because surgeons tend to sort of default to female. They don't always assign the best sex to the intersexed child, and it has cause problems in the past. I mean, sometimes, I don't know how often, they do a great job. Like if it's just that the opening of the urethra is at the base of the penis instead of the end, they can just fix that, and it's not too big a deal. Sometimes, when the sex of the child is very ambiguous, they make the wrong decision, which causes gender identity problems later in life.



slowmutant
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01 Aug 2008, 8:07 pm

If it's so ambiguous, who's to say the surgeons made the "wrong?" decision? How can anyone know that if the baby presents with something so baffling?



Malsane
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01 Aug 2008, 8:13 pm

They only know later in life. When they grow in mature, they find themselves as transgendered. They feel as if their sex is wrong. It's actually a pretty fascinating thing. I've taken courses on it. It can be horrible for transsexual individuals, and it is something the general populace should know more about.



skafather84
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01 Aug 2008, 8:31 pm

Malsane wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
Malsane wrote:
Slowmutant, you are simply factually incorrect. Some people are intersexed. It is not the norm, but it happens. Most intersexed individuals are 'corrected' at birth. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.



why put corrected in quotes?
Because surgeons tend to sort of default to female. They don't always assign the best sex to the intersexed child, and it has cause problems in the past. I mean, sometimes, I don't know how often, they do a great job. Like if it's just that the opening of the urethra is at the base of the penis instead of the end, they can just fix that, and it's not too big a deal. Sometimes, when the sex of the child is very ambiguous, they make the wrong decision, which causes gender identity problems later in life.


i thought there were blood tests that could be done to determine the gender?



skafather84
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01 Aug 2008, 8:32 pm

Malsane wrote:
They feel as if their sex is wrong.



how much of this is due to their biology vs how much of it is due to societal gender roles?



Malsane
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01 Aug 2008, 8:37 pm

To your first comment, I had never heard that. Gender is a psychological thing, so I don't think there could be a blood test for it. Or do you mean check the DNA to see if there's a Y or another X? Still, the chromosomes may not match up with the gender or sex. It is possible to develop as the opposite sex, as that is mostly a hormonal thing.

To the second, it's a bit of both. It really depends on the transgendered person. A transsexual will feel like they are in the wrong body. Some trangenders can deal with their sex, but are just differently gendered, not filling the gender role. That's more like me.



skafather84
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01 Aug 2008, 9:30 pm

Malsane wrote:
To your first comment, I had never heard that. Gender is a psychological thing, so I don't think there could be a blood test for it. Or do you mean check the DNA to see if there's a Y or another X? Still, the chromosomes may not match up with the gender or sex. It is possible to develop as the opposite sex, as that is mostly a hormonal thing.

To the second, it's a bit of both. It really depends on the transgendered person. A transsexual will feel like they are in the wrong body. Some trangenders can deal with their sex, but are just differently gendered, not filling the gender role. That's more like me.



i meant checking X/Y.

to the second part, i'll get back to that in a bit...i have more questions but i wanna be able to ask the right questions.



Malsane
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01 Aug 2008, 10:24 pm

No problem. Take your time to articulate. Also, a general apology to all I may have offended. I can never tell if I'm coming across as rude. I just want to make sure that people don't think I'm angry or crazy or shouting at them. Sex, gender, and sexuality are things I feel passionate about, and it's a topic of interest for me. Please don't mistake my zeal for fury!



slowmutant
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01 Aug 2008, 10:41 pm

If I were like you, Maldane, I'd be very knowledgeable about these sex&gender issues as well. I don't have the knowledge or understanding because it's not relevant to my life. That does not make me stupid or ignorant.



Malsane
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01 Aug 2008, 10:44 pm

It does not make you stupid, but it does make you ignorant of the issues. Even if I were not gay, I would feel it necessary to fight for gay rights. It's a matter of conscience for me. It is the next great civil rights battle in this country.



slowmutant
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01 Aug 2008, 10:53 pm

Please ... please ... please do not call me IGNORANT. :evil:

I've asked nicely have I not? Would you like me to call you some names?



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01 Aug 2008, 11:03 pm

I'm sorry, I really didn't mean any offense. I just meant that you are not that knowledgeable in this particular sphere. I was not trying to insult you, I really don't think you're stupid or terribly uninformed. I just think that you could learn more about this issue. I am very sorry to have offended you.