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NeantHumain
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28 Aug 2008, 6:40 pm

Has anyone studied the Anglo-Saxon language? For those who don't know, Anglo-Saxon, or Old English, is the linguistic ancestor of all modern English (and Scots) dialects. The appearance of the written form looks more like modern German than modern English, and this is because it predates the heavy influence of Anglo-Norman French and the Latin of scribes and priests.



twoshots
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28 Aug 2008, 6:47 pm

I studied it briefly in high school for kicks. The inflection system was a b***h, and the lack of standardization didn't help. Don't remember too much now.


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chever
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28 Aug 2008, 7:48 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
Has anyone studied the Anglo-Saxon language? For those who don't know, Anglo-Saxon, or Old English, is the linguistic ancestor of all modern English (and Scots) dialects. The appearance of the written form looks more like modern German than modern English, and this is because it predates the heavy influence of Anglo-Norman French and the Latin of scribes and priests.


Very very briefly, in middle school

I lost my copy of Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer; can't even find that

The only dead language I study these days is Common Lisp


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pandabear
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28 Aug 2008, 8:51 pm

I thought that Scottish was a Gaelic rather than Germanic language. I must have been wrong.



chever
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28 Aug 2008, 9:00 pm

pandabear wrote:
I thought that Scottish was a Gaelic rather than Germanic language. I must have been wrong.


That's not the same thing as Gaelic

See here:

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/scots.htm

It's basically what Groundskeeper Willie sounds like


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burnse22
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28 Aug 2008, 9:07 pm

There is Scottish Gaelic, mostly spoken in the Highlands and Islands. It heavily influenced Scots.


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pezar
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29 Aug 2008, 3:40 pm

Old English is basically a Germanic language since the Saxons were Germanic mercenaries hired by the post-Roman ruler of Britannia (England) to fight his wars for him. That king ran out of money to pay them, and they couldn't get back home, so they decided to take over the place instead. Eventually, they did, despite an all out war waged by the Celts. The Scots and the Irish spoke a Celtic tongue, basically two different versions of what we call Gaelic. Gaelic is NOT an Indo-European language, indeed it's not quite clear where it came from. The Celts themselves have somewhat mysterious origins, like the Basques in Spain. The Romani (Gypsies) were finally tracked down to around 1000 AD and an apparent migration of a tribe from India into Europe. Then there's the Ainu of Japan, who are genetically Caucasian. How did Caucasians make their way to Japan? Nobody knows. Obviously, the history of human origins has more holes than swiss cheese. Did I mention African tribesmen and East Indians with Israelite DNA?



chever
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29 Aug 2008, 3:42 pm

Yes, Gaelic is Indo-European.

Part of the Jewish diaspora migrated into southern India and parts of East Africa, that's plain to see.


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twoshots
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29 Aug 2008, 4:21 pm

pezar wrote:
Old English is basically a Germanic language since the Saxons were Germanic mercenaries hired by the post-Roman ruler of Britannia (England) to fight his wars for him. That king ran out of money to pay them, and they couldn't get back home, so they decided to take over the place instead. Eventually, they did, despite an all out war waged by the Celts. The Scots and the Irish spoke a Celtic tongue, basically two different versions of what we call Gaelic. Gaelic is NOT an Indo-European language, indeed it's not quite clear where it came from.

Untrue. The Gaelic are of the Celtic branch of Indo European.
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Then there's the Ainu of Japan, who are genetically Caucasian. How did Caucasians make their way to Japan? Nobody knows.

If memory serves, the Ainu *look* Caucasian, but are not genetically dissimilar to other populations in the area, particularly those of the Russian far east and that kind of area (although their y-haplogroup, oddly enough, is most common among the Tibetans and the Andamanese, but it is found elsewhere in Japan). While the Ainu are somewhat unusual, there is no reason to think they are somehow earth-shatteringly odd.
Quote:
Obviously, the history of human origins has more holes than swiss cheese.

Not really.


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iamnotaparakeet
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29 Aug 2008, 5:09 pm

I have read the dual language version of Beowulf translated by Howard Chickering, Old English is interesting. I was going to study it, but I should probably restart and finish my study of Latin first.

Quote:
Hwät! we Gâr-Dena in geâr-dagum
þeód-cyninga þrym gefrunon,
hû þâ äðelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scêfing sceaðena þreátum,
monegum mægðum meodo-setla ofteáh.
Egsode eorl, syððan ærest wearð
feá-sceaft funden: he þäs frôfre gebâd,
weôx under wolcnum, weorð-myndum ðâh,
ôð þät him æghwylc þâra ymb-sittendra
ofer hron-râde hýran scolde,
gomban gyldan: þät wäs gôd cyning!
þäm eafera wäs äfter cenned
geong in geardum, þone god sende
folce tô frôfre; fyren-þearfe ongeat,
þät hie ær drugon aldor-leáse
lange hwîle. Him þäs lîf-freá,
wuldres wealdend, worold-âre forgeaf;
Beówulf wäs breme (blæd wîde sprang),
Scyldes eafera Scede-landum in.
Swâ sceal geong guma, gôde gewyrcean,
fromum feoh-giftum on fäder wine,
þät hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wil-gesîðas, þonne wîg cume,
leóde gelæsten: lof-dædum sceal
in mægða gehwære man geþeón
Him þâ Scyld gewât tô gescäp-hwîle
fela-hrôr fêran on freán wære;
hi hyne þâ ätbæron tô brimes faroðe.
swæse gesîðas, swâ he selfa bäd,
þenden wordum weóld wine Scyldinga,
leóf land-fruma lange âhte.
Þær ät hýðe stôd hringed-stefna,
îsig and ûtfûs, äðelinges fär;
â-lêdon þâ leófne þeóden,
beága bryttan on bearm scipes,
mærne be mäste. Þær wäs mâdma fela,
of feor-wegum frätwa gelæded:
ne hýrde ic cymlîcor ceól gegyrwan
hilde-wæpnum and heaðo-wædum,
billum and byrnum; him on bearme läg
mâdma mänigo, þâ him mid scoldon
on flôdes æht feor gewîtan.
Nalas hi hine lässan lâcum teódan,
þeód-gestreónum, þonne þâ dydon,
þe hine ät frumsceafte forð onsendon
ænne ofer ýðe umbor wesende:
þâ gyt hie him âsetton segen gyldenne
heáh ofer heáfod, lêton holm beran,
geâfon on gâr-secg: him wäs geômor sefa,
murnende môd. Men ne cunnon
secgan tô soðe sele-rædende,
häleð under heofenum, hwâ þäm hläste onfêng.



iamnotaparakeet
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29 Aug 2008, 6:02 pm

Anyone know where the quote is from?



NeantHumain
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29 Aug 2008, 6:28 pm

Scots is more or less a dialect of English that is sometimes considered to be a separate but closely related language (it's really all semantics). Scots is not the same as Scottish English, which is roughly the standard English language spoken with a Scottish accent and a few Scottish words thrown in. English has been spoken in the Lowlands of Scotland for about as long as Scottish Gaelic has been spoken in the Highlands and on the western coast. The Scots invaded Scotland at roughly the same time as the English invaded England. The Britons (now the Welsh) lived throughout what is now England, and the Picts lived through most of Scotland. The Scots, during the Roman era, lived in Ireland and formed a kingdom called Dál Riata, and the Dalriatians (Scots) later lost their Irish possessions and focused on conquering Caledonia instead. Eventually the kingdoms of Pictland and Scotland merged, forming the Scotland we know today.

Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx Gaelic all share a common ancestor, sometimes called Old Irish; together these languages are called the Goidelic languages and together with the Brythonic languages (Welsh, Cornish, and Breton) make up the Insular Celtic languages. The Continental Celtic languages (Gaulish, Lepantian, Celtiberian, and Gallacian) are all extinct. The Celtic languages, possibly through an intermediate ancestor including the Italic languages as its descendants, is a branch of the Indo-European language family.



twoshots
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29 Aug 2008, 9:02 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anyone know where the quote is from?

Well, it begins in "Hwæt", so it seems pretty much certain it comes from Beowulf, even if I don't remember the actual Anglo-Saxon for the poem other than that...


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NeantHumain
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30 Aug 2008, 12:05 am

twoshots wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anyone know where the quote is from?

Well, it begins in "Hwæt", so it seems pretty much certain it comes from Beowulf, even if I don't remember the actual Anglo-Saxon for the poem other than that...

Wasn't he referring to his sig quote? He said the long text in Old English was Beowulf in the message itself.



iamnotaparakeet
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30 Aug 2008, 12:07 am

NeantHumain wrote:
twoshots wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anyone know where the quote is from?

Well, it begins in "Hwæt", so it seems pretty much certain it comes from Beowulf, even if I don't remember the actual Anglo-Saxon for the poem other than that...

Wasn't he referring to his sig quote? He said the long text in Old English was Beowulf in the message itself.


No, I was referring to the quoted text in the context of this thread.

My signature I have composed myself and has not existed previously.



NeantHumain
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30 Aug 2008, 12:13 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
twoshots wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Anyone know where the quote is from?

Well, it begins in "Hwæt", so it seems pretty much certain it comes from Beowulf, even if I don't remember the actual Anglo-Saxon for the poem other than that...

Wasn't he referring to his sig quote? He said the long text in Old English was Beowulf in the message itself.


No, I was referring to the quoted text in the context of this thread.

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I have read the dual language version of Beowulf translated by Howard Chickering, Old English is interesting.
Quote:
Hwät!
[...]
Beówulf wäs breme (blæd wîde sprang),

Now if you took some obscure passage from the middle of it instead of just the opening page, it might have been trickier, especially if you hadn't mentioned the book you pulled it from in the same message.