Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

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adb
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26 Dec 2012, 3:21 pm

The earth is just a resource to consume. When it starts to run out, we'll expand to another planet to consume.

Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that we won't sacrifice anything and anyone for our survival. You can fight all you want to preserve nature, but you'll lose in the long run.



androbot2084
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26 Dec 2012, 3:39 pm

Do you trash your body just because you believe you will receive a new one?



ruveyn
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26 Dec 2012, 3:47 pm

adb wrote:
The earth is just a resource to consume. When it starts to run out, we'll expand to another planet to consume.



Most likely not. We will end up like those stranded dudes on Easter Island. Up the creek without a paddle and by their own hands.

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26 Dec 2012, 3:51 pm

I can't read all that right now...but I think I get the point and I tend to agree. The fast paced consumerist society we have certainly plays a role in mental health problems. Regardless of if people want to call such a theory whining or not does not negate the fact that our society does contribute to mental health problems...and no a lot of times people can't just 'suck it up' and keep up with the game. It seems more and more people end up in that position, therefore they struggle even to simply survive and well poverty and mental illness go together. It's obvious to me but its much easier to pretend theres nothing wrong with this society but rather anyone who cannot keep up with it regardless of the reason.

Even though it hasn't happened yet, but rather has started happening......I think Marx's prediction about capitalism choking on its own wealth and collapsing in on itself (or something to that effect I read that quote a long time ago) is to come. But I suppose we shall see.


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slave
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29 Dec 2012, 8:56 pm

The manner in which we live will not be altered in any way by Luddites.
We will continue along the exponential path which leads to the Technological Singularity.

The path to the Singularity constitutes an existential threat to our species.
We may not survive.

The path to the Singularity also has the potential to change what it means to be human.
We will have control over the evolution of every species.
We will be able to merge with technology and become transhuman and even post-human.
We will be able to modify this planet in any way that we see fit (in acc. with the Laws of Physics).

If you have not studied the Singularity and its implications, I would highly recommend that you do.
This is the near future that we face.
Anyone who agrees with the OP will consider the Singularity to be the nadar of despair.
For better or for worse it is our fate.


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30 Dec 2012, 2:43 am

I think we are there. Industry is based on consumers, and we have everything. Next we can make things with less human involvment, and we are close to building machines that make China obsolete. 3-D Printers are coming along fast.

As for population, some 8.4 billion possible DNA outcomes, and we start producing doubles.

What gets edited out now is removed from the genome. Humans are not from all the people who ever lived, they are from a minority that survived, and produced children that survived, and that process continues.

Industry needed consumers to reach a level where consumers in mass are no longer needed. Those living beneath a sheet of tin outside some slum city, are not consumers.

Population will not be reduced due to enlightened programs, it will come do to sudden system failures. Depending on oil, when prices spike, supplies are short, food costs rise, and there is no way to deliver what no one could pay for. Water is another system heading for failure.

When it starts it reduces demand, as if no one can buy oil, they will also not be able to buy food. Production will be cut back.

We see it in our housing market, after the loss of great wealth, prices down by half, it is still not a buyers market, and million have made other living arangments. Loss of demand kills construction, and houses sit empty.

Our government is faced with eating it's self. Spending based on consumers has failed, debt is very real, and raising taxes will only make it worse.

We are at Post Consumer Economics, and it is all down from here.

We have entered the endless recession, and all of the spending that reduces the value of money barely keeps us there. A decline of GDP is the future, a depression that never ends.

Prices are falling because we have an excess, reduced demand, for electric, gas, and food is over produced for an export market that could dry up, when the people we used to import from no longer have our business.

We do not have to cut back food production, drought is doing that for us. We will eat, but those who used to eat our food will have to find something else.

We have enough coal and natural gas to keep things running. Other places are not so well off. Without oil imports, they no longer have the electric to pump water. They never developed a farming sector, or like the liberated Rodisia, turned the most productive farms into squatter camps, who now beg for food. HIV rates reach up to 50% in Africa, no treatment is available.

That is part of why half of Nigeria is under fifteen. still overpopulated, and about to have a population boom. It will not end well.

China runs on imported oil, food, and exports manufactured goods. Loss of market and they are in serious trouble. China has never had a recession. They have been keeping it going by building buildings that sit empty, high speed rail that costs more than flying, and even a command economy has limits.

OP is getting what he wanted, a worldwide decline of the industrial consumer economy. Unemployed people will spend everything on food and water, and demand will continue to drop. Deflation is the long term economy.

The result should be avioded, perhaps a billion will survive. The odds of several pan-epidemics being unstopable, could reduce that farther.

It will be good for the trees.

It will not be orderly, and for social and medical reasons, many of the survivors should be killed. Cannibals infected with HIV, no other way to deal with it.

Species survival is going to impose some standards.



ruveyn
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30 Dec 2012, 3:50 am

Inventor wrote:


Species survival is going to impose some standards.


As it always has. Nature will not be mocked. Nature will triumph no matter what.

ruveyn



The_Walrus
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30 Dec 2012, 10:50 am

Inventor wrote:
As for population, some 8.4 billion possible DNA outcomes, and we start producing doubles.

Erm... what on Earth do you mean by that?



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31 Dec 2012, 1:01 am

I mean there is a limit to DNA. just like the lottery, and I have read 8.4 billion, as the possible number of tickets. After that come doubles.

I have also heard it in legal cases, out of 8.4 billion possible combinations, the DNA found at the crime matches only the defendant.

I did not check this myself, I just read alot.

Now a little math says if doubles are possible, they will start happening long before the total number is reached. Unrelated identical twins.



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31 Dec 2012, 1:10 am

I mean there is a limit to DNA. just like the lottery, and I have read 8.4 billion, as the possible number of tickets. After that come doubles.

I have also heard it in legal cases, out of 8.4 billion possible combinations, the DNA found at the crime matches only the defendant.

I did not check this myself, I just read alot.

Now a little math says if doubles are possible, they will start happening long before the total number is reached. Unrelated identical twins.



ruveyn
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31 Dec 2012, 9:36 am

Inventor wrote:
I mean there is a limit to DNA. just like the lottery, and I have read 8.4 billion, as the possible number of tickets. After that come doubles.

I have also heard it in legal cases, out of 8.4 billion possible combinations, the DNA found at the crime matches only the defendant.

I did not check this myself, I just read alot.

Now a little math says if doubles are possible, they will start happening long before the total number is reached. Unrelated identical twins.


8.4 billion possible permutations sounds a bit low. Actually it sounds more than a bit low.

ruveyn



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31 Dec 2012, 10:18 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I can't read all that right now...but I think I get the point and I tend to agree. The fast paced consumerist society we have certainly plays a role in mental health problems. Regardless of if people want to call such a theory whining or not does not negate the fact that our society does contribute to mental health problems...and no a lot of times people can't just 'suck it up' and keep up with the game. It seems more and more people end up in that position, therefore they struggle even to simply survive and well poverty and mental illness go together. It's obvious to me but its much easier to pretend theres nothing wrong with this society but rather anyone who cannot keep up with it regardless of the reason.

Even though it hasn't happened yet, but rather has started happening......I think Marx's prediction about capitalism choking on its own wealth and collapsing in on itself (or something to that effect I read that quote a long time ago) is to come. But I suppose we shall see.


In any human society there are going to be "problems." In any human society, there are going to be individuals who will be negatively affected by it.

Doesn't matter if the society is hunter-gatherer, agrarian, feudal, industrial, post-industrial, ect. Every social scheme is going to agree with some more than others.

Furthermore, I'm not pretending that our society has no problems, I just want the people who are so anti-industrial/anti-technology/anti-military-industrial-complex to stop being so hypocritical, and put their money where their mouth is. If you want to live in the forest, go live in the forest. Hell, hippie communes still exist, so go join one. Just, for the love of all that is unholy, stop sitting in a temperature-controlled apartment, wearing a Nike t-shirt, and typing on a Wal-Mart purchased computer about how EVERYBODY ELSE are the "real" villains.

Quote:
Species survival is going to impose some standards.


Am I the only person who doesn't give a crap if our species survives?


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ruveyn
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31 Dec 2012, 10:20 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

Am I the only person who doesn't give a crap if our species survives?


Yes.

Most normal folk do not wish to be the last human alive.

ruveyn



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31 Dec 2012, 10:21 am

ruveyn wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:

Am I the only person who doesn't give a crap if our species survives?


Yes.

Most normal folk do not wish to be the last human alive.

ruveyn


I'd love to be the last person on Earth! :D


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ruveyn
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31 Dec 2012, 10:24 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:

Am I the only person who doesn't give a crap if our species survives?


Yes.

Most normal folk do not wish to be the last human alive.

ruveyn


I'd love to be the last person on Earth! :D


You are doomed to disappointment.

ruveyn