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Dr Fredrick Toben's arrest should alarm us all

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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 8:07 pm

I am an advocate of free speech, but there's a difference between speaking freely and inciting anger/hatred in others with deliberate inflammatory statements.



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11 Oct 2008, 8:17 pm

I think the only censorship should be of the morons calling for abridging freedom of speech. [/intentional hypocrisy]

Seriously, Slowmutant and other censorship advocates: I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I consider your views to be infinitely more dangerous than that of Holocaust Deniers, Neo-Nazis, or Jihadists. But I still think you should be able to express those views. You can express any view you wish, no matter how offensive or wrong, and once those views are openly expressed they can be openly refuted, and free and public discourse will choose the best in the marketplace of ideas.


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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 8:23 pm

Orwell wrote:
I think the only censorship should be of the morons calling for abridging freedom of speech. [/intentional hypocrisy]

Seriously, Slowmutant and other censorship advocates: I've said it before, and I'll say it again; I consider your views to be infinitely more dangerous than that of Holocaust Deniers, Neo-Nazis, or Jihadists. But I still think you should be able to express those views. You can express any view you wish, no matter how offensive or wrong, and once those views are openly expressed they can be openly refuted, and free and public discourse will choose the best in the marketplace of ideas.


I appreciate you comparing me to Holocaust-deniers, Neo Nazis, and Jihadists. I'm really in distinguished company. And in the spirit of free speech, I will try to be even nicer to you.



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11 Oct 2008, 8:28 pm

slowmutant wrote:
I appreciate you comparing me to Holocaust-deniers, Neo Nazis, and Jihadists. I'm really in distinguished company. And in the spirit of free speech, I will try to be even nicer to you.

I've explained it before. Neo-Nazis and Holocuast deniers are pathetic losers who will never be a threat to society. People who call for curtailing freedom are a clear and present danger to our civilization, though.


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11 Oct 2008, 8:32 pm

Orwell wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
I appreciate you comparing me to Holocaust-deniers, Neo Nazis, and Jihadists. I'm really in distinguished company. And in the spirit of free speech, I will try to be even nicer to you.

I've explained it before. Neo-Nazis and Holocuast deniers are pathetic losers who will never be a threat to society. People who call for curtailing freedom are a clear and present danger to our civilization, though.


More so than Holocaust-deniers, Neo Nazis and Jihadists? So you think it's right for people to say all kinds of filfth and hate speech? As long as it doesn't bother you personally, right? As as you are not offended, it doesn't matter what people say, right?



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11 Oct 2008, 8:40 pm

slowmutant wrote:
People who call for curtailing freedom are a clear and present danger to our civilization, though.


More so than Holocaust-deniers, Neo Nazis and Jihadists?[/quote]
By far, yes. A thousand times yes. I've already stated that in this very thread, in the post you quoted. It needn't be clarified any farther.

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So you think it's right for people to say all kinds of filfth and hate speech?

Do I think it is right for people to say such things? No. But people do a lot of things that I don't think is right. My personal preferences should not govern the lives of the rest of the world.

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As long as it doesn't bother you personally, right? As as you are not offended, it doesn't matter what people say, right?

I guess I'll have to quote myself.
Earlier on this very page, I wrote:
I consider your views to be infinitely more dangerous than that of Holocaust Deniers, Neo-Nazis, or Jihadists. But I still think you should be able to express those views.

Even in the case of Michael Savage's hateful comments towards autistics, and even in the case of people like you demanding attacks on freedom itself, I still believe in freedom of speech.


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slowmutant
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11 Oct 2008, 8:44 pm

Quote:
My personal preferences should not govern the lives of the rest of the world


And they don't. Which is why I won't hesitate to give you a piece of my mind.



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11 Oct 2008, 8:52 pm

slowmutant wrote:
As as you are not offended, it doesn't matter what people say, right?
Right. :wink:



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11 Oct 2008, 8:53 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Quote:
My personal preferences should not govern the lives of the rest of the world


And they don't. Which is why I won't hesitate to give you a piece of my mind.

And your preferences similarly should not, and don't, govern everyone else's lives.


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11 Oct 2008, 8:56 pm

And somewherre in the middle lies respect for the other, decency and understanding.

But the protection of free speech is half-useless if no one understands the spirit of the law. The letter of the law by itself isn't enough.



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11 Oct 2008, 8:58 pm

claire333 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
As as you are not offended, it doesn't matter what people say, right?
Right. :wink:


Free speech is about self-discipline, as well. It's about disciplining yourself not to deliberately inflame others.



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11 Oct 2008, 9:01 pm

Trying to go in the middle and have limited free speech is a tricky business. You will never get everyone to agree to where exactly the line should be drawn, and you'll end up with creeping censorship like the ever-growing Index of Prohibited Books that the Catholics maintained for hundreds of years. I prefer to draw no line, and allow all speech. I would rather have to tolerate a bit of hateful, offensive, and inflammatory language than risk impinging on anyone's freedom.


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11 Oct 2008, 9:03 pm

Orwell wrote:
Trying to go in the middle and have limited free speech is a tricky business. You will never get everyone to agree to where exactly the line should be drawn, and you'll end up with creeping censorship like the ever-growing Index of Prohibited Books that the Catholics maintained for hundreds of years. I prefer to draw no line, and allow all speech. I would rather have to tolerate a bit of hateful, offensive, and inflammatory language than risk impinging on anyone's freedom.


If you only care about yourself, free speech is meaningless.



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11 Oct 2008, 9:03 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Free speech is about self-discipline, as well. It's about disciplining yourself not to deliberately inflame others.
I'm not trying to inflame you. Just joking around, because your statement really is true. Many people think total freedom of speech is fine until it causes problems for them. I have been guilty myself...



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11 Oct 2008, 9:04 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
I was thinking about this last night. Here we are on a forum that most definately does not allow unfettered free speech arguing that unfettered free speech is an unassailable human right whilst at the same time asking for the mods to ban someone for hate speech.

Wrong Planet does not allow hate speech for the sme reasons that it should not be allowed in the wider world - people get hurt by it. WP is a good example how restricted free speech can and should work. We have intense and often heated debate on all manner of issues which is moderated to make sure that no one is destroyed in the process. Very few topics are banned outright but the way in which the debate can proceed is kept to agreed formats and boundaries.

This is a private forum, owned and operated by a set of individuals. Any exercise of speech here is at the whims of those in charge. One has no fundamental freedom to use someone else's property however one chooses. The situations are spectacularly different, and I'm getting very tired of people conflating being a troll on the internet with a free speech issue.


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11 Oct 2008, 9:05 pm

claire333 wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Free speech is about self-discipline, as well. It's about disciplining yourself not to deliberately inflame others.
I'm not trying to inflame you. Just joking around, because your statement really is true. Many people think total freedom of speech is fine until it causes problems for them. I have been guilty myself...


Then you see what I'm trying to say? Oh, hallelujah. :)