On a specific wheel of rationelle - the prison system

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DentArthurDent
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29 Nov 2008, 6:01 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
If living in a prison is regarded as better than having a free life there is something very wrong with the society in question. I would suggest that such a society would go a long way in solving its criminal problem by fixing up the obviously terrible inequalities that exist.


Your speaking of *every* society under the sun and the world as it is can't reach that kind of perfection without installing a dictatorship. In Syria there is no crime because, the government is the mafia. Its all a game of trade-offs and yes, a zero-sum game at that. We can either have crime or we can strip ourselves of our own liberties - the question then of course, if we choose liberty, is how to address crime, and unfortunately being that its a game of deterrents it comes down to making jail an unappealing place to be.


Not really, I agree that humanity will never be able to achieve total equality and dictatorships never install equality (just look at the political structure for a start).

I am making the point that if a society is SO unequal that those at the bottom have so little they have more in prison then that particular society is fundamentally flawed. Boost the living standards of the poor and many causes of crime disapear


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29 Nov 2008, 6:08 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
I am making the point that if a society is SO unequal that those at the bottom have so little they have more in prison then that particular society is fundamentally flawed. Boost the living standards of the poor and many causes of crime disapear


You can throw all the money at them you want, in the end though its cultural. If we hypothetically brought ourselves to socialism (ie. bringing everyone down to live, quite likely, together, below where the poor even are right now, it wouldn't make the situation better at all. The human mind, human wiring, it doesn't work like this and won't; socialism is like trying to wish away a continent or an ocean.



DentArthurDent
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29 Nov 2008, 8:14 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
I am making the point that if a society is SO unequal that those at the bottom have so little they have more in prison then that particular society is fundamentally flawed. Boost the living standards of the poor and many causes of crime disapear


You can throw all the money at them you want, in the end though its cultural. If we hypothetically brought ourselves to socialism (ie. bringing everyone down to live, quite likely, together, below where the poor even are right now, it wouldn't make the situation better at all. The human mind, human wiring, it doesn't work like this and won't; socialism is like trying to wish away a continent or an ocean.


What a crock, this is one of the most uninformed, bigoted , ignorant posts that I have read in a long time 8O


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claire-333
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29 Nov 2008, 8:42 pm

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Last edited by claire-333 on 30 Nov 2008, 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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29 Nov 2008, 8:54 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
What a crock, this is one of the most uninformed, bigoted , ignorant posts that I have read in a long time 8O


:bows: your welcome ;).

I'm not saying the poor are anything less, all I'm saying is when we give away something for nothing - for those who are in anything more than dire need for the sake of getting back on their feet, we aren't doing them or ourselves a service. Finding ways to bring them up and have fewer poor - that's a plan, but anything other than that I'm really not much for, its a disincentive for those who create wealth and who create jobs. That's the 101 of it. You may be happy with crushing everyone's standards of living to fit the same horizon but, that's going to bring the problems all the way across the board and yes, give people far fewer incentive to be industrious; I can't go with that one myself, seems like suicide of reality for a dream of what certain people 'wish' reality was.



DentArthurDent
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29 Nov 2008, 11:12 pm

In the USA a family of four with two children would need to earn $9.52 per hour to keep the family above the poverty line, presently the federal minimum pay is $6.55 several state awards are even lower a gap of $2.97 per hour or $118 for a working week

Source: http://wcpc.washington.edu/basics/wclabor.shtml

Even if both parents work they are only $175 above the poverty line. Then we have to factor in child care, the extra expense of two fares too and from work. Before you know it because the wages are so pathetically low a family with two working adults is back living on the poverty line.

You talk about giving away something for nothing but you expect, uneducated, unfortunate, unlucky, low IQ people, to work to exist whilst the more able make a fortune from these very people.
Capitalism does not have to be this nasty their are plenty of examples of a fairer systems existing within this ideology. Australia with all its faults has a welfare system, no one has to live below the poverty line, there is no time limit to how long you can receive benefits and yet unemployment is around 5% and unlike the US is not going into recession.

Sweden often falsely held up as a socialist state has an unemployment rate below 5%. The USA has a rate of 6.5 and rising fast.

Unemployment has nothing to do with welfare, culture, race etc.. It has to do with education and training and resources which in the US is distributed in a way that further marginalises the poor. Unemployment can become 'cultural' only because the fortunate and the government have allowed generational poverty to continue. These 'cultural' areas need massive injections of funds and resources, they need the best education and medical facilities not the left over crumbs.

You do not have to embrace socialism to reduce poverty there are plenty of examples where a more benevolent form of capitalism can achieve results. The USA is a study in how NOT to do it


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claire-333
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30 Nov 2008, 12:08 am

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Last edited by claire-333 on 30 Nov 2008, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DentArthurDent
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30 Nov 2008, 2:22 am

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A family with two minimum wage incomes can get assistance. Maybe not as much as someone below the poverty line, but they can still get free healthcare for their children, possibly also a small amount of food stamps, and maybe some other stuff; and that is just government. There also local agencies everywhere that will help families with everything from clothing and school supplies for children to helping pay utilities


A better system would pay them a fair wage that they can live on, without the need for assistance.

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But you are looking in from the outside and do not know how to work the system


Yeah and that means that I do not fall into the trap and believe the populist garbage put out about those on welfare. I have had to look up government sites to get a handle on your welfare system.

Admittedly I did not turn up much on childcare, I know about the childcare vouchers but do they cover the entire cost? how about the medical expenses what is covered by the government. Here anybody can go to a Dr for free and hospital care is also free. Of course you can go private which works well for elective surgery.

The point that I am trying to make is that although I do not agree with capitalism there are far better examples of it. These capitalist countries with better welfare generally have less crime and much lower rates of recidivism. The US 'winner' takes all approach is morally bankrupt


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30 Nov 2008, 3:17 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
In the USA a family of four with two children would need to earn $9.52 per hour to keep the family above the poverty line, presently the federal minimum pay is $6.55 several state awards are even lower a gap of $2.97 per hour or $118 for a working week.


Minor quibble, the Federal minimum is the floor, no state may have a wage lower than the national minimum. There is this nasty thing called "tip credit" that really needs to be junked, that allows employers to deduct an employees tip against their minimum wage obligations down to a floor of $2.15 an hour. This got on the books because the restaurant industry has a better lobby than the restaurant workers do, and they where having back of the house mutinies because even the worst servers make several times what the average line cook makes. The restaurant business is even more cutthroat than most and is badly in need of reform, though doing so would be very painful to everyone.


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