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Shadowgirl
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25 Mar 2009, 12:48 pm

OBAMA'S STEM CELL LIE- There is a huge difference between adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells. Adult stem cell research has provided real cures for real illnesses. I have met and shaken hands with a man who had all his Parkinson's disease symptoms relieved by adult stem cell treatment. On the other hand, embryonic stem cells have provided no cures and have actually caused injury. The embryonic stem cell "science" is obsolete and there is just nothing there that will ever help anyone. Why then did President Obama begin taxpayer funding of this obsolete science? He claimed he did it to cure five illnesses he listed, but it was adult stem cells that have yielded the cures in all five areas. Is Obama just flat out ignorant on the subject, OR is he satisfying the pro-death lobby in the Democrat party that wants to play with embryos to prove they are just cells and not real people? If that is the case perhaps Obama should invite a snowflake baby to the White House. Snowflake babies develop from embryos adopted from suspended animation. Read US News, "Why Embryonic Stem Cells are Obsolete."

-William J. Murray, Chairman Religious Freedom Coalition






http://health.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to ... olete.html



Scientists may be growing impatient, but President Obama has been rightly taking his time in addressing a campaign promise to lift the ban on federal funding for research using new lines of stem cells to be taken from human embryos. Even for strong backers of embryonic stem cell research, the decision is no longer as self-evident as it was, because there is markedly diminished need for expanding these cell lines for either patient therapy or basic research. In fact, during the first six weeks of Obama's term, several events reinforced the notion that embryonic stem cells, once thought to hold the cure for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and diabetes, are obsolete. The most sobering: a report from Israel published in PLoS Medicine in late February that shows embryonic stem cells injected into patients can cause disabling if not deadly tumors.

The report describes a young boy with a fatal neuromuscular disease called ataxia telangiectasia, who was treated with embryonic stem cells. Within four years, he developed headaches and was found to have multiple tumors in his brain and spinal cord that genetically matched the female embryos used in his therapy.

His experience is neither an anomaly nor a surprise, but one feared by many scientists. These still-mysterious cell creations have been removed from the highly ordered environment of a fast-growing embryo, after all. Though they are tamed in a petri dish to be disciplined, mature cells, research in animals has shown repeatedly that sometimes the injected cells run wildly out of control—dashing hopes of tiny, human embryos benignly spinning off stem cells to save grown-ups, without risk or concern.

That dream was still alive only a few weeks before this report. Within days of Obama's inauguration, the Food and Drug Administration approved its first-ever embryonic stem cell study in humans: the biotech company Geron's plan to inject highly purified human embryonic cells into eight to 10 patients with acute spinal cord injuries. (The cells are from a stem cell line approved by Bush because it predated his ban.) The FDA should now be compelled to take another look: Are eight to 10 patients enough, or one year of monitoring sufficient, to assess safety? And doctors who participate in the trial will have to ask what every doctor must ask before performing research on a human subject: Were I this patient, would I participate? Would I encourage my loved ones to do so?

Even as the future of embryonic stem cells has dimmed, adult stem cell research has scored major wins evident just in the past few months. These advances involve human stem cells that are not derived from human embryos. In fact, adult stem cells, which occur in small quantities in organs throughout the body for natural growth and repair, have become stars despite great skepticism early on. Though this is a more difficult task, scientists have learned to coax them to mature into many cell types, like brain and heart cells, in the laboratory. (Such stem cells can be removed almost as easily as drawing a unit of blood, and they have been used successfully for years in bone marrow transplants.)

To date, most of the stem cell triumphs that the public hears about involve the infusion of adult stem cells. We've just recently seen separate research reports of patients with spinal cord injury and multiple sclerosis benefiting from adult stem cell therapy. These cells have the advantage of being the patient's natural own, and the worst they seem to do after infusion is die off without bringing the hoped-for benefit. They do not have the awesome but dangerous quality of eternal life characteristic of embryonic stem cells.

A second kind of stem cell that has triumphed is an entirely new creation called iPS (short for induced pluripotent stem cell), a blockbuster discovery made in late 2007. These cells are created by reprogramming DNA from adult skin. The iPS cells are embryonic-like in that they can turn into any cell in the body—and so bypass the need for embryos or eggs. In late February, scientists reported on iPS cells that had been transformed into mature nerve cells. While these cells might become a choice for patient therapy in time, scientists are playing this down for now. Why? These embryonic-like cells also come with the risk of cancer.

James Thomson, the stem cell pioneer from the University of Wisconsin who was the first to grow human embryonic stem cells in 1998, is an independent codiscoverer of iPS cells along with Japanese scientists. Already these reprogrammed cells have eclipsed the value of those harvested from embryos, he has said, because of significantly lower cost, ease of production, and genetic identity with the patient. They also bring unique application to medical and pharmaceutical research, because cells cultivated from patients with certain diseases readily become laboratory models for developing and testing therapy. That iPS cells overcome ethical concerns about creating and sacrificing embryos is an added plus.

The importance of stem cells for medical research has never been greater, and the scientific and public clamor for unimpeded research is fully understandable. But it's important that Obama and everyone supporting a lifting of the ban be clear with the public on what is involved in this decision; it's more complex than advertised. The ban Bush became famous for restricted the use of federal research dollars just to adult stem cells and embryonic stem cells already in existence at the time of his executive order. Lifting this ban so that researchers can use frozen embryos that would otherwise be discarded—they've been donated by couples who have had in vitro fertilization treatments—has drawn wide and bipartisan support from Congress. It's an easy lift.

The more ethically charged decision—less understood by the public and one Congress has avoided—involves the ban on creating human embryos in the laboratory solely for research purposes. In fact, President Clinton is the one who balked at allowing scientists to use government money for embryo creation and research on stem cells harvested from such embryos; Bush only affirmed the Clinton ban. The scientific community has been able to attract nonfederal money for such work, and it is going on all the time in stem cell institutes. Scientists want relief from the inconvenience and expense of keeping that work and the money that supports it separate from federal dollars.

Reversing the executive orders of two prior presidents on embryo creation, which even the Congress has been unwilling to tackle, is a far bigger issue than lifting the ban on the use of IVF embryos slated for destruction. Obama stands for transparency, and it's important for him to make sure the public understands his decision, including that all stem cells are not the same or created equally.


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Fnord
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25 Mar 2009, 1:04 pm

William J. Murray has no training as a biologist, geneticist, or medical professional. Yet many deluded people believe his words on the topic of Stem-Cell Research carries greater validity than the words of educated professionals in those fields.

Mr. Murray's opinions on Stem-Cell research are based on biased dogma and a neoconservative prejudice against abortion that has no basis in anything other than superstition and Biblical mythology - no scientific credibility whatsoever - and therefore, Mr. Murray is not qualified to make any statements for or against Stem-Cell research.


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Shadowgirl
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25 Mar 2009, 2:14 pm

Fnord wrote:
William J. Murray has no training as a biologist, geneticist, or medical professional. Yet many deluded people believe his words on the topic of Stem-Cell Research carries greater validity than the words of educated professionals in those fields.

Mr. Murray's opinions on Stem-Cell research are based on biased dogma and a neoconservative prejudice against abortion that has no basis in anything other than superstition and Biblical mythology - no scientific credibility whatsoever - and therefore, Mr. Murray is not qualified to make any statements for or against Stem-Cell research.


Hes spoken to them and meet them. I think as long as he repeats what he saw and heard he has the right to say it.
Plus he reference it to a credible source.


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25 Mar 2009, 2:29 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
Hes spoken to them and meet them. I think as long as he repeats what he saw and heard he has the right to say it. Plus he reference it to a credible source.

I have spoken to and met several OB/GYNs. That does not qualify any opinions I may have on conception, gestation, and childbirth, now does it? It only means that I know a few physicians who specialize in women's reproduction. Thus, Mr. Murray having spoken to and met any number of experts in their field does not make Mr. Murray an expert as well. It only means that he knows a few researchers.

Also, there are a lot of "credible" sources, but that credibility is bestowed by those people that are gullible enough to believe anything that those sources may say. What Mr. Murray has not done is cite valid sources - those who are the real experts in the field of embryonic stem cell research, and not merely those who fear that the funding for their research into adult stem cells may be reduced in favor of embryonic stem cell research. Those "credible" source may have a hidden agenda, and no "valid" arguments to share.

Besides, Mr. Murray - being a Fundamentalist Christian evangelist - has his own agenda for seeing to it that abortion is outlawed, and he likely wants to remove any incentive for maintaining a woman's right to choose. And if that agenda includes spreading propaganda against embryonic stem cell research, then he'll stand behind his bully pulpit and propagandize to his heart's content.

And he'll get away with it, because even though the propaganda is invalid, he can always say that he was just repeating what he saw, heard, and was told be the "experts" that he has spoken to and met, and that he never realized that it was all a lie.

Religionists ... PFFT! :P


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Shadowgirl
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26 Mar 2009, 3:28 pm

Yeah get away with killing babies for something that doesn't even work.


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26 Mar 2009, 4:07 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
Yeah get away with killing babies for something that doesn't even work.


Killing Babies :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


How can you possibly refer to a collection of 50 - 150 cells in such a way. Hundreds of thousands of unwanted blastocysts are destroyed each year. Why not use them for research.

I really am sick and tired of religionists determining how everyone else should live.


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26 Mar 2009, 5:21 pm

Never confuse credibility with validity. Just because "Everybody" believes thus-and-such, does not make it so.

Credibility is merely the ability to inspire belief, while Validity is the quality of being logically correct and traceable to physical proof.

Evangelists constantly hone their Credibility to the ignorant masses, while Scientists constantly seek Validity within their theories regardless of how (in)Credible their theories may be to those same ignorant masses.

When it comes to curative products and treatments, I find the opinions of one medical scientist (a "Physician") both more Credible and more Valid than the opinions of any number of religionists put together.

(Rules of evidence must be strictly adhered to. Written testimony must include the original documents, which must be dated and signed by the author, and preferably notarized or otherwise witnessed and attested to. Physical evidence must include similarly validated documentation establishing chain of custody. Any evidence not meeting these criteria shall be deemed invalid, and therefore inadmissable as evidence.)


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26 Mar 2009, 5:50 pm

Fnord wrote:
Mr. Murray's opinions on Stem-Cell research are based on biased dogma and a neoconservative prejudice against abortion that has no basis in anything other than superstition and Biblical mythology - no scientific credibility whatsoever - and therefore, Mr. Murray is not qualified to make any statements for or against Stem-Cell research.

Quote:
-William J. Murray, Chairman Religious Freedom Coalition

well, that surely seems to indicate a biased position, therefore questionable.


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zerooftheday
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26 Mar 2009, 8:10 pm

If the opinion of a Christian is biased, and therefore questionable, isn't the opinion of a person who stands to make a lot of money from this kind of research also questionable? Certainly it would be possible for that person to twist facts to their liking, right? Or are all non-religious motivations OK, and all faith-based motivations highly questionable? Seems a little hypocritical...

If a scientist sets out to prove that religion is false, is that any less biased that a religious man who sets out to prove that a branch of science is immoral? Both have objectives, and simply being a scientist is not instant proof of rationality, nor is faith instant proof of irrationality. Both sides have fanatics who won't listen to reason, and both sides have people who can logically debate something in a polite manner.

And the question of destroying the unborn in the quest for an as-yet unproven science is an ethical one, so therefore anyone who has a code of ethics has an equal claim on the ethics of such an action.

If the science was so certain, wouldn't major medical research companies be clamoring for research funding, not the politicians? If embryonic stem-cell research (which isn't illegal, only not gov't-funded) held the secret to a cure for cancer, wouldn't the major med research companies be all over it? They could charge $500K for a cure, and people would sell their children to raise the money.



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26 Mar 2009, 8:42 pm

zerooftheday wrote:
If the opinion of a Christian is biased, and therefore questionable, isn't the opinion of a person who stands to make a lot of money from this kind of research also questionable? Certainly it would be possible for that person to twist facts to their liking, right? Or are all non-religious motivations OK, and all faith-based motivations highly questionable? Seems a little hypocritical...

If a scientist sets out to prove that religion is false, is that any less biased that a religious man who sets out to prove that a branch of science is immoral? Both have objectives, and simply being a scientist is not instant proof of rationality, nor is faith instant proof of irrationality. Both sides have fanatics who won't listen to reason, and both sides have people who can logically debate something in a polite manner.

But only one side has a little thing called "falsifiability" to make them shut up.

Quote:
And the question of destroying the unborn in the quest for an as-yet unproven science is an ethical one, so therefore anyone who has a code of ethics has an equal claim on the ethics of such an action.

If the science was so certain, wouldn't major medical research companies be clamoring for research funding, not the politicians? If embryonic stem-cell research (which isn't illegal, only not gov't-funded) held the secret to a cure for cancer, wouldn't the major med research companies be all over it? They could charge $500K for a cure, and people would sell their children to raise the money.

Presumably. This is pretty symbolic.


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zerooftheday
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26 Mar 2009, 9:14 pm

You are stating that no non-Christian scientist has ever falsified data?

It was a hypothetical meant to illustrate a point using an attribute common to the management of big MRCs: Greed.



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26 Mar 2009, 9:26 pm

zerooftheday wrote:
You are stating that no non-Christian scientist has ever falsified data?

It was a hypothetical meant to illustrate a point using an attribute common to the management of big MRCs: Greed.

and your posts on the subject illustrate an attribute of evangelical Christians : Power

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zerooftheday
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26 Mar 2009, 10:12 pm

Power? Power isn't an attribute, it is a resource. Are you saying we have power, that we seek power, that we abuse power? The same could be said of every demographic ever.



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26 Mar 2009, 10:19 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
Yeah get away with killing babies for something that doesn't even work.

I rather kill babies for my own pleasure, they are a delicacy.


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27 Mar 2009, 1:34 am

greenblue wrote:
Shadowgirl wrote:
Yeah get away with killing babies for something that doesn't even work.

I rather kill babies for my own pleasure, they are a delicacy.


How do you cook them? I like mine skewered and cooked on a BBQ with some Mesquite wood smoke. Of course full term babies need to be spit roasted.


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27 Mar 2009, 3:23 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Shadowgirl wrote:
Yeah get away with killing babies for something that doesn't even work.

I rather kill babies for my own pleasure, they are a delicacy.


How do you cook them? I like mine skewered and cooked on a BBQ with some Mesquite wood smoke. Of course full term babies need to be spit roasted.

Mmm, babies... almost as tasty as kittens. Anyways, babies should not be cooked on a BBQ but rather eaten rare, preferably while still crying.


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