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Chibi_Neko
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17 May 2009, 4:25 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Don't even deny it.


Deny what???

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I am just bringing this up. I thought that this might be a possibility though, so I hope I wasn't rude sounding when I did that. :)


Na, I am at work right now, and my post took close close to 15 min to type because I am contantly doing other things.


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ed
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17 May 2009, 4:40 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
: if you are in favor of abortion, then you literally are in favor of murder..


GODDAMN IT, I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF ABORTION!! ! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:



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17 May 2009, 4:41 pm

Orwell wrote:
Shadowgirl wrote:
To me abortion is murder and it should be counted as so.

I mean really have some compassion for the unborn they are humans too.

The situation is seldom so black and white.

Have some compassion for the mother, she is a human too.


Well so is the baby.


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Orwell
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17 May 2009, 4:59 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Shadowgirl wrote:
To me abortion is murder and it should be counted as so.

I mean really have some compassion for the unborn they are humans too.

The situation is seldom so black and white.

Have some compassion for the mother, she is a human too.


Well so is the baby.

There is some disagreement on that point. Does life begin at the moment of conception? Does that life count as human?

Pro-lifers tend to be dishonest in giving the impression that abortions are routinely performed on nearly fully-grown infants. This is not the case- the overwhelming majority of abortions are early on in pregnancy. As a society, we seem to feel more qualms about abortion the closer to term the infant is, which is why you can easily find opponents to partial-birth abortion but it is harder to stir up opposition to the morning-after pill. Somewhere in between those two is a fuzzy line that needs to be drawn. To my mind, the debate needs to be about where to draw that line, rather than about making some absolute determination with no reference to reality or the predominating cultural values.


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MattShizzle
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17 May 2009, 5:17 pm

I personally see no more of a moral dilemma in abortion than I do in swatting a fly.

Interestingly since it's mostly Christians who are part of the pro-life movement, the Buybull isn't anti-abortion at all:

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php



Orwell
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17 May 2009, 5:35 pm

MattShizzle wrote:
I personally see no more of a moral dilemma in abortion than I do in swatting a fly.

Interestingly since it's mostly Christians who are part of the pro-life movement, the Buybull isn't anti-abortion at all:

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

It might be best not to get your ideas on what religious people believe from an explicitly atheist organization- they may have a slight tendency to construct straw men. They also seem to be using an extremely sloppy translation of the Bible.

Anyways, I don't see this issue as being really along religious lines, but more about when you decide that a fetus is a living human being with rights. I get the impression, Matt, that you draw the line when the baby pops out of the womb and starts crying. Shadowgirl, I gather, draws the line at sperm hitting egg. If I have interpreted the two of you correctly, I think you both have rather stupid and unrealistic views on the subject.


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ed
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17 May 2009, 5:42 pm

Orwell wrote:
I don't see this issue as being really along religious lines.


Can you find me a "pro-life" Atheist, then?



Shadowgirl
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17 May 2009, 5:46 pm

Orwell wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
I personally see no more of a moral dilemma in abortion than I do in swatting a fly.

Interestingly since it's mostly Christians who are part of the pro-life movement, the Buybull isn't anti-abortion at all:

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

It might be best not to get your ideas on what religious people believe from an explicitly atheist organization- they may have a slight tendency to construct straw men. They also seem to be using an extremely sloppy translation of the Bible.

Anyways, I don't see this issue as being really along religious lines, but more about when you decide that a fetus is a living human being with rights. I get the impression, Matt, that you draw the line when the baby pops out of the womb and starts crying. Shadowgirl, I gather, draws the line at sperm hitting egg. If I have interpreted the two of you correctly, I think you both have rather stupid and unrealistic views on the subject.


Yeah like yours is any better. When life starts it starts and shouldn't be interfered with.


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Orwell
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17 May 2009, 5:49 pm

ed wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I don't see this issue as being really along religious lines.


Can you find me a "pro-life" Atheist, then?

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

But what I meant was that I don't think the reasoning on the abortion debate really follows religious lines. The pro-life case still holds outside a theistic framework, and pro-choice arguments can still hold within the context of Christianity.


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ed
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17 May 2009, 5:58 pm

Orwell wrote:
ed wrote:
Orwell wrote:
I don't see this issue as being really along religious lines.


Can you find me a "pro-life" Atheist, then?

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

But what I meant was that I don't think the reasoning on the abortion debate really follows religious lines. The pro-life case still holds outside a theistic framework, and pro-choice arguments can still hold within the context of Christianity.


Wow!... they are mostly conservatives, a surprising number who (obviously falsely) profess to be Libertarian.



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17 May 2009, 6:02 pm

ed wrote:
Wow!... they are mostly conservatives, a surprising number who (obviously falsely) profess to be Libertarian.

Pro-life is mostly a conservative position, so that's not really a surprise. I have heard libertarian arguments in favor of pro-life. Also, on social issues I personally tend to be quite left-leaning, but abortion is the one social issue where I think the "conservative" side has a strong, valid point. Abortion is morally troublesome to a heck of a lot of people, especially late-term abortion. I just don't think the most extreme pro-life position makes sense in the real world.


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Awesomelyglorious
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17 May 2009, 11:06 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:
Deny what???

I neglected the "I".



Awesomelyglorious
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17 May 2009, 11:11 pm

ed wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
: if you are in favor of abortion, then you literally are in favor of murder..


GODDAMN IT, I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF ABORTION!! ! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Umm..... the difference is basically semantic. All I need to do to rectify the situation is place in the term "legalized" before abortion. In any case, it's also pretty trivial, as a person who favors legalized murder can quickly be summed up as a person who is in favor of murder.(ok, this is ignoring the strict definition of murder for the moral connotations, so don't jump on me for that)

In any case, I don't really see what the big deal either way is. As I am just describing a worldview, and there isn't necessarily a big moral difference in voting for the right to kill people, and killing them yourselves. (Note: this is not saying anything about abortion, when personhood begins, or anything like that)

Frankly though, if fetuses aren't people, then why does it even matter if they are killed? I mean, all it means is more bodily damage.



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17 May 2009, 11:21 pm

MattShizzle wrote:
I personally see no more of a moral dilemma in abortion than I do in swatting a fly.

Interestingly since it's mostly Christians who are part of the pro-life movement, the Buybull isn't anti-abortion at all:

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/abortion.php

One, a major issue involved is that the early church was against abortion, and the theological ideas of the early church are considered somewhat binding on later believers. This also holds somewhat for the trinity, which never came into serious question after the Protestant reformation, despite the fact that "trinity" is never found in the Bible. Abortion is to some extent a similar thing, and there are early church fathers who can be cited as openly opposing abortion.

Second, as Orwell points out, the reading of scripture is against a proper reading. As a major point it points to is the commandment not to kill, however, the word in hebrew connotes murder, and all of the instances used to disprove this instance are instances where God gave commands to kill certain beings, making this not murder. A second issue is also that the Exodus is not always interpreted in the manner that is given. It is correct that the interpretation offered there is a possible one, however, many conservative Christians take the other interpretation where this passage does refer to abortion.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5700



Awesomelyglorious
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17 May 2009, 11:22 pm

ed wrote:
Can you find me a "pro-life" Atheist, then?

I've met one.

In any case, the SLED argument is not a religiously based argument.