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MikeH106
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30 May 2009, 7:00 pm

I heard today that people and kids who work in sweatshops in China aren't even granted the free speech to tell others how they feel about it. Is that a bad thing?

When it comes to issues like these, I try to at least give the ridiculed side its fair consideration. Communism, we might imagine, would begin as a struggle, particularly after generations of living in a capitalist society, but after a while, it would become more tolerable and even enjoyable after genetic adaptation occurs. When the good communists succeed (unfortunately, leaving the bad communists behind) they might grow to like their work -- even in a sweatshop (though I'm not claiming that).

Why wouldn't China grant them that free speech? What would they fear from their workers? What do you think of my idea that communism could eventually become successful after genetic adaptation?

I ask even without much knowledge of how communism works. All I know is that the product quantity or value of one's labor is divided among the community rather than given to oneself (am I right about this?). I do not yet understand why people must be told what profession to take up in such a country.


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MattShizzle
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30 May 2009, 7:58 pm

China isn't really communist - the fact they have those sweatshops shows they are very capitalist.



Orwell
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30 May 2009, 10:13 pm

MikeH106 wrote:
I heard today that people and kids who work in sweatshops in China aren't even granted the free speech to tell others how they feel about it.

You didn't know this before? What rock have you been living under?

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Is that a bad thing?

Yes.

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When it comes to issues like these, I try to at least give the ridiculed side its fair consideration.

The Red Chinese government are brutal monsters. They do not deserve consideration, only death.

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Communism, we might imagine, would begin as a struggle, particularly after generations of living in a capitalist society, but after a while, it would become more tolerable and even enjoyable after genetic adaptation occurs.

You emphasized the words "genetic adaptation." To what are you referring? Do you imagine that communism will somehow result in genotypic shifts in the population?

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they might grow to like their work -- even in a sweatshop (though I'm not claiming that).

Why do you do this? You simultaneously advance a view while denying you endorse it.

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Why wouldn't China grant them that free speech?

Because free speech undermines totalitarianism.

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What would they fear from their workers?

Revolt.

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What do you think of my idea that communism could eventually become successful after genetic adaptation?

No. And I have no idea what in the world you mean by genetic adaptation in this context. It's not a concept that makes sense to throw into political science at all.

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All I know is that the product quantity or value of one's labor is divided among the community rather than given to oneself (am I right about this?).

Not really, at least not in practice.

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I do not yet understand why people must be told what profession to take up in such a country.

The entire economy is controlled by the state.


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pakled
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30 May 2009, 10:39 pm

let's put it this way; the Death Penalty is alive and well in China (too), only when we do it, we don't send a bill to the next of kin for the bullet

(not making this up, either)



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31 May 2009, 6:35 am

MikeH106 wrote:

I ask even without much knowledge of how communism works
. All I know is that the product quantity or value of one's labor is divided among the community rather than given to oneself (am I right about this?). I do not yet understand why people must be told what profession to take up in such a country.


This (highlighted in bold) is obvious. Just because a regime declares itself or is declared to be by others; communist, does not make it so.

China is a totalitarian dictatorship which is undergoing a rapid transformation into a capitalist state and has never even in the loosest definition of the term been communist. Many dictatorships have been labeled communist by the various capitalist oligarchies in an attempt (unfortunately some what successfully) to discredit and demonise the idea of Socialism.

You are on the right track about the value of labour. Inasmuch as the productive forces and resources of a society are targeted at the whole rather than the individual. Another consideration being that socialism is international in its perspective as opposed to the nationalistic contradictive nature of capitalism and dictatorships


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DentArthurDent
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31 May 2009, 6:48 am

MikeH106 wrote:

I ask even without much knowledge of how communism works
. All I know is that the product quantity or value of one's labor is divided among the community rather than given to oneself (am I right about this?). I do not yet understand why people must be told what profession to take up in such a country.


This (highlighted in bold) is fine, in fact I applaud you for asking this question, rather than joining the multitudes of sheeple that do not question this contradiction in terms. Just because a regime declares itself or is declared to be by others; communist, does not make it so.

China is a totalitarian dictatorship which is undergoing a rapid transformation into a capitalist state and has never even in the loosest definition of the term been communist. Many dictatorships have been labeled communist by the various capitalist oligarchies in an attempt (unfortunately some what successfully) to discredit and demonise the idea of Socialism.

You are on the right track about the value of labour. Inasmuch as the productive forces and resources of a society are targeted at the whole rather than the individual. Another consideration being that socialism is international in its perspective as opposed to the nationalistic contradictive nature of capitalism and dictatorships.

The term communism refers to a society that has undergone a period of Socialism and now administers itself in such a way that makes the state redundant

To quote Lenin
"From the moment all members of society, or at least the vast majority, have learned to administer the state themselves, have taken this work into their own hands, have organized control over the insignificant capitalist minority, over the gentry who wish to preserve their capitalist habits and over the workers who have been thoroughly corrupted by capitalism — from this moment the need for government of any kind begins to disappear altogether. The more complete the democracy, the nearer the moment when it becomes unnecessary. The more democratic the "state" which consists of the armed workers, and which is "no longer a state in the proper sense of the word", the more rapidly every form of state begins to wither away.

"Then the door will be thrown wide open for the transition from the first phase of communist society [Socialism] to its higher phase [Communism], and with it the complete withering away of the state. "


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ruveyn
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31 May 2009, 11:02 am

MattShizzle wrote:
China isn't really communist - the fact they have those sweatshops shows they are very capitalist.


They are very mercantile and industrial. The government is still the main controller of capital. Private ownership of the means of production is not the operating mode in China. The Government Thugs have their fingers in every pie, particularly the profitable pies. The Government gets is cut of everything. The system in China is more fascist than it is captialistic.

ruveyn



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31 May 2009, 12:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
China isn't really communist - the fact they have those sweatshops shows they are very capitalist.


They are very mercantile and industrial. The government is still the main controller of capital. Private ownership of the means of production is not the operating mode in China. The Government Thugs have their fingers in every pie, particularly the profitable pies. The Government gets is cut of everything. The system in China is more fascist than it is captialistic.

ruveyn

Yes but the markets themselves are actually more open. i can buy anything from china. there is no differentiating between wholesale and retail. it is only quantity and price.



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31 May 2009, 12:24 pm

At present state, a fully communistic society is impossible.

At present state, a fully capitalistic society is impossible.

It's more relevant to discuss the in-betweens...


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0_equals_true
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31 May 2009, 1:22 pm

Well quality of life in cuba is definitely better than some other than other devolving countries I have visited. Life expectancy is higher and thy have a high number of centenarian. they have good healthcare. It is not all good mind. But I have been to worse places, and they weren't all communist.

You can’t generalise based on political system. It is also related to what resources are, how secure those resources are, how much there are able to reinvest in the country, how resourceful they are with what they have.



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31 May 2009, 1:26 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Well quality of life in cuba is definitely better than some other than other devolving countries I have visited. Life expectancy is higher and thy have a high number of centenarian. they have good healthcare. It is not all good mind. But I have been to work places, and they weren't all communist.


not to mention that, as Fidel says it: "in Cuba all prostitutes have higher education" :P


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0_equals_true
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31 May 2009, 1:28 pm

anna-banana wrote:
not to mention that, as Fidel says it: "in Cuba all prostitutes have higher education" :P

Sex torism is big in cuba, and there may be underage activity too. However this in nothing unique.

I'm just saying if you go by the poor developing countries the 'official' political system is rather irrelevant in their day to day lives.



MikeH106
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31 May 2009, 3:43 pm

Thank you for your responses so far.

I just want to point out that Orwell has committed a straw man fallacy in claiming that I've advanced the view that communist workers would genetically adapt to enjoy working in a sweatshop. I merely said that they might, from our point of view, so no contradiction follows.

List of fallacies


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31 May 2009, 4:04 pm

There was no strawman. You just don't write clearly.

And what in the world are you talking about in reference to genetic adaptation?


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DentArthurDent
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31 May 2009, 4:49 pm

Henriksson wrote:
At present state, a fully communistic society is impossible.

At present state, a fully capitalistic society is impossible.

It's more relevant to discuss the in-betweens...


Thats easy - Socialism


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