Oregon Plan to Undo "Racism in Mathematics".

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Fnord
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19 Feb 2021, 11:35 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
... If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "dilute" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula...
I have experienced this first-hand.  I studied hard, and mean really studied, for advancement exams in the Navy.  I even requested one of the Chief Petty Officers to "drill" me on possible test questions (from the backs of the textbooks).  I missed out on a lot of liberty calls and had very little social life, but the result was that I advanced at twice the pace of those who enlisted at the same time as I.

In college, I purposely selected STEM course with those instructors who had the fiercest reputations for having high standards.  I scored highly on those exams as well, and about 3/4s of the people who started their engineering courses at the same time as I either switched majors to HASS courses, or dropped out of college completely.

Now, when I interview candidates for positions in my company, I administer a simple 50-question test on basic electrical theory (i.e., Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Watt's Law, et cetera).  Those who pass the test (e.g., 35 or more correct answers) move on to the personal interview; those who do not pass are thanked and invited to try again on the next job posting.

I do not hire based on looks, personality, or religious/political affiliation, but on merit instead.


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QuantumChemist
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19 Feb 2021, 11:53 am

magz wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
I agree. There is no good reason to lower standards of education. Students are like customers, regardless of what status that they have/do not have. Teachers need to give the students the best product (education) that they can, or they are ripping the students off. I measure my teaching skills not on popularity but by what my students do with what I teach them. Many of my coworkers take shortcuts in teaching students that I later have to correct. I must be doing something right by the way I teach. I have many former students who are now medical doctors, pharmacists and even licensed chemists. I often get thank you messages when they pass qualifying exams, as they credit my lessons for giving them an edge on passing.
And that's what makes a good teacher: what his students learn :)

QuantumChemist wrote:
I am sorry to hear about the sexism in your field, Magz. It simply does not belong in science or any other area.
Luckily, such occurences are very rare and they're becoming even rarer as I age - but that's the only form of bias against minority that I have experienced first-hand... before I started moderating, lol :D But those who had a problem with being moderated by a foreign female always had even bigger problem with adhering to the rules and never lasted long :mrgreen:



This will seem strange, but as an older white male, I am in a small minority within my chemistry department. Many coworkers have been vocal about gradually pushing me out of the department, so that they can replace me with someone more like themselves. They say it is to promote diversity, but they will only hire friends that are mirror images and graduated from the same university. It is like they want a Xerox copy of themselves. They will soon get their wish when I transition out of higher education within a few years. I have had enough. It is time to move on to another career outside of teaching. I used to really love teaching students, until the departmental politics polluted it too much.

I will be the first to admit that I am far from perfect. I was born a human and unfortunately still have a small part of my humanity left. Hopefully, I will figure out how to completely remove that before I die.



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19 Feb 2021, 11:57 am

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
... If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "dilute" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula...
I have experienced this first-hand.  I studied hard, and mean really studied, for advancement exams in the Navy.  I even requested one of the Chief Petty Officers to "drill" me on possible test questions (from the backs of the textbooks).  I missed out on a lot of liberty calls and had very little social life, but the result was that I advanced at twice the pace of those who enlisted at the same time as I.

In college, I purposely selected STEM course with those instructors who had the fiercest reputations for having high standards.  I scored highly on those exams as well, and about 3/4s of the people who started their engineering courses at the same time as I either switched majors to HASS courses, or dropped out of college completely.

Now, when I interview candidates for positions in my company, I administer a simple 50-question test on basic electrical theory (i.e., Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Watt's Law, et cetera).  Those who pass the test (e.g., 35 or more correct answers) move on to the personal interview; those who do not pass are thanked and invited to try again on the next job posting.

I do not hire based on looks, personality, or religious/political affiliation, but on merit instead.


I wish my department did that in the hiring process. Alas, it has become a popularity contest here, with nepotism involved.



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19 Feb 2021, 11:58 am

QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
... If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "dilute" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula...
I have experienced this first-hand.  I studied hard, and mean really studied, for advancement exams in the Navy.  I even requested one of the Chief Petty Officers to "drill" me on possible test questions (from the backs of the textbooks).  I missed out on a lot of liberty calls and had very little social life, but the result was that I advanced at twice the pace of those who enlisted at the same time as I.

In college, I purposely selected STEM course with those instructors who had the fiercest reputations for having high standards.  I scored highly on those exams as well, and about 3/4s of the people who started their engineering courses at the same time as I either switched majors to HASS courses, or dropped out of college completely.

Now, when I interview candidates for positions in my company, I administer a simple 50-question test on basic electrical theory (i.e., Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Watt's Law, et cetera).  Those who pass the test (e.g., 35 or more correct answers) move on to the personal interview; those who do not pass are thanked and invited to try again on the next job posting.

I do not hire based on looks, personality, or religious/political affiliation, but on merit instead.
I wish my department did that in the hiring process. Alas, it has become a popularity contest here, with nepotism involved.
Have you tried the "My way or the highway" ultimatum?


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QuantumChemist
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19 Feb 2021, 1:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
... If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "dilute" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula...
I have experienced this first-hand.  I studied hard, and mean really studied, for advancement exams in the Navy.  I even requested one of the Chief Petty Officers to "drill" me on possible test questions (from the backs of the textbooks).  I missed out on a lot of liberty calls and had very little social life, but the result was that I advanced at twice the pace of those who enlisted at the same time as I.

In college, I purposely selected STEM course with those instructors who had the fiercest reputations for having high standards.  I scored highly on those exams as well, and about 3/4s of the people who started their engineering courses at the same time as I either switched majors to HASS courses, or dropped out of college completely.

Now, when I interview candidates for positions in my company, I administer a simple 50-question test to on basic electrical theory (i.e., Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Watt's Law, et cetera).  Those who pass the test (e.g., 35 or more correct answers) move on to the personal interview; those who do not pass are thanked and invited to try again on the next job posting.

I do not hire based on looks, personality, or religious/political affiliation, but on merit instead.
I wish my department did that in the hiring process. Alas, it has become a popularity contest here, with nepotism involved.
Have you tried the "My way or the highway" ultimatum?


It will not work with the department. They think that they can do whatever they like. The head of my department had threatened my job at the start of my employment if I did anything against them, so they would be happy to see me go. I am a lower tiered (non-tenured track) employee, so I do not have much pull. When I finally leave, I will be presenting a nice package of evidence (legally taped conversations of meetings, emails, etc.) to the HR department for them to review as they see fit. It likely will not even get looked at, so the department will slowly decay under their own policies. I do feel bad for the students who are caught in the aftermath though.



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19 Feb 2021, 1:08 pm

QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
... If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "dilute" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula...
I have experienced this first-hand.  I studied hard, and mean really studied, for advancement exams in the Navy.  I even requested one of the Chief Petty Officers to "drill" me on possible test questions (from the backs of the textbooks).  I missed out on a lot of liberty calls and had very little social life, but the result was that I advanced at twice the pace of those who enlisted at the same time as I.

In college, I purposely selected STEM course with those instructors who had the fiercest reputations for having high standards.  I scored highly on those exams as well, and about 3/4s of the people who started their engineering courses at the same time as I either switched majors to HASS courses, or dropped out of college completely.

Now, when I interview candidates for positions in my company, I administer a simple 50-question test to on basic electrical theory (i.e., Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Watt's Law, et cetera).  Those who pass the test (e.g., 35 or more correct answers) move on to the personal interview; those who do not pass are thanked and invited to try again on the next job posting.

I do not hire based on looks, personality, or religious/political affiliation, but on merit instead.
I wish my department did that in the hiring process. Alas, it has become a popularity contest here, with nepotism involved.
Have you tried the "My way or the highway" ultimatum?
It will not work with the department. They think that they can do whatever they like. The head of my department had threatened my job at the start of my employment if I did anything against them, so they would be happy to see me go. I am a lower tiered (non-tenured track) employee, so I do not have much pull. When I finally leave, I will be presenting a nice package of evidence (legally taped conversations of meetings, emails, etc.) to the HR department for them to review as they see fit. It likely will not even get looked at, so the department will slowly decay under their own policies. I do feel bad for the students who are caught in the aftermath though.
That package might be more effective in the hands of a lawyer ... or the media ...


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19 Feb 2021, 2:03 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "diluted" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula. They often have to rely on the goodwill of other people educated more conventionally. This perpetuates a vicious cycle----part of that cycle is the assumption that "minorities" cannot make the grade without the inevitable assistance of those in the "majority."

In our system here, to add insult to injury, there's the peculiar detail that high-quality higher education (the type that practically guarantees employment) is often free, while the low-quality variety is not. So there's this extra sort of tax on the poor who don't want their CV immediately thrown in the garbage. I was talking with my father about this, he said "did you know that one of our recent education ministers was himself a major stakeholder in an education company?". Oh wow, what a shocking surprise, what are the odds. Cram schools and diploma mills are big business. There's a reason (well, lots of them really) why I'm very, very skeptical and cynical when it comes to these types of supposedly "socially-progressive" measures and what actual motives may be involved.

If you're a really bright student here, you can probably get into a good university. There's no tuition fee, admittance is strictly based on standardized exams (with the only exception that students from public schools, and I think black students too nowadays, are granted a small boost in their scores), and public universities offer supplementary introductory courses for students who may still have difficulty with certain specific subjects they're supposed to know already. My university also offered nearly-free food and free accommodations for people who really can't afford rent (really shoddy apartments, but still).

So there's a very strong narrative that it's an entirely meritocratic system. But if you're poor and you're not that rare genius, chances are you'll go through life unfamiliar with the very idea that you should actually ever even be supposed to know stuff. Your future will be determined almost entirely by how well-connected you are. Apart from obviously perpetuating inequalities, it's bound to feed misdirected discontent.


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19 Feb 2021, 2:18 pm

So the issue with "Racism in Mathematics", may really be with "Classism in Teaching".


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QuantumChemist
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19 Feb 2021, 2:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
QuantumChemist wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
... If we dilute the curriculum for the "benefit" of "minorities," we are doing the "minorities" a disservice. People educated in this "dilute" way often cannot compete with those who are educated with more demanding curricula...
I have experienced this first-hand.  I studied hard, and mean really studied, for advancement exams in the Navy.  I even requested one of the Chief Petty Officers to "drill" me on possible test questions (from the backs of the textbooks).  I missed out on a lot of liberty calls and had very little social life, but the result was that I advanced at twice the pace of those who enlisted at the same time as I.

In college, I purposely selected STEM course with those instructors who had the fiercest reputations for having high standards.  I scored highly on those exams as well, and about 3/4s of the people who started their engineering courses at the same time as I either switched majors to HASS courses, or dropped out of college completely.

Now, when I interview candidates for positions in my company, I administer a simple 50-question test to on basic electrical theory (i.e., Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Watt's Law, et cetera).  Those who pass the test (e.g., 35 or more correct answers) move on to the personal interview; those who do not pass are thanked and invited to try again on the next job posting.

I do not hire based on looks, personality, or religious/political affiliation, but on merit instead.
I wish my department did that in the hiring process. Alas, it has become a popularity contest here, with nepotism involved.
Have you tried the "My way or the highway" ultimatum?
It will not work with the department. They think that they can do whatever they like. The head of my department had threatened my job at the start of my employment if I did anything against them, so they would be happy to see me go. I am a lower tiered (non-tenured track) employee, so I do not have much pull. When I finally leave, I will be presenting a nice package of evidence (legally taped conversations of meetings, emails, etc.) to the HR department for them to review as they see fit. It likely will not even get looked at, so the department will slowly decay under their own policies. I do feel bad for the students who are caught in the aftermath though.
That package might be more effective in the hands of a lawyer ... or the media ...


I have been a whistleblower before at a different teaching job. It did not end well, as I was fired for doing the right thing in reporting attempted illegal chemical dumping to officials. It almost cost me my career as a chemist. Sometimes you have to wait until the end of your rope to get your say.



Bravo5150
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19 Feb 2021, 3:30 pm

Does changing the way math is being taught mean additional set up on a new calculator that requires entering your age, race, and gender before receiving the "correct" answer?



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19 Feb 2021, 3:39 pm

Bravo5150 wrote:
Does changing the way math is being taught mean additional set up on a new calculator that requires entering your age, race, and gender before receiving the "correct" answer?
No, it means that calculators -- by virtue of producing the correct answer if used correctly -- are oppressive and should be banned from the classroom.  I mean, if "close" is "good enough" for a passing grade, then calculators provide an unfair advantage to those who use them, right?

:roll: I am expressing sarcasm, again...


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19 Feb 2021, 4:15 pm

I am thinking with all of the arguments around classes being racist, maybe we should just cancel all further school attendance as a mandatory requirement. If math is racist against minorities, it must also mean phys Ed is racist against whites. And driver's ed is prejudice against people with certain disabilities.



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19 Feb 2021, 4:27 pm

One could reasonably claim that the entire educational system is ableist, in that only those who are capable of learning have any possibility of success.  So then what happens?

Autodidacticism and home-schooling for those who are willing and able to undertake these efforts.

As for the rest ... there is always going to be a demand for manual labor.  Who needs to learn how to operate heavy construction equipment when there are plenty of shovels to go around?

:roll: Man ... my sarcasm gene is really getting a workout today!


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19 Feb 2021, 5:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
So the issue with "Racism in Mathematics", may really be with "Classism in Teaching".

My impression is that by far the worst real issue when it comes to racism in education in the US is gerrymandering.


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19 Feb 2021, 5:46 pm

toadsnail wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So the issue with "Racism in Mathematics", may really be with "Classism in Teaching".

My impression is that by far the worst real issue when it comes to racism in education in the US is gerrymandering.


How would changing the rule from precise to close enough not be gerrymandering?



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19 Feb 2021, 5:53 pm

Bravo5150 wrote:
toadsnail wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So the issue with "Racism in Mathematics", may really be with "Classism in Teaching".
My impression is that by far the worst real issue when it comes to racism in education in the US is gerrymandering.
How would changing the rule from precise to close enough not be gerrymandering?
It is not "Gerrymandering" it is "Lowering the Bar" or "Widening the Goalposts".


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