Verdict returned in Rittenhouse trial

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Redd_Kross
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24 Nov 2021, 4:29 am

Pepe wrote:
I didn't say everyone in the BLM *movement* is a Marxist.
I was saying it has been reported that the *organisers* are Marxists.


BLM is well-known for being a largely decentralised and relatively disorganised movement. In my view that's actually a good thing, it means the protests you see are more likely to be heartfelt than politically staged. On the other hand the same inclusivity that sees lots of protestors campaigning side by side, but often for very different individual reasons, means BLM as a whole is hard to define as anything more than a broad set of principles (or complaints).

That also leaves BLM wide open to negative interpretation by those elements of the media keen to do so. There are lots of factors involved which BLM protestors can't deny exist, but also can't quantify in terms of importance relative to other factors. Many of which might not be getting discussed at all, because that wouldn't suit the media's generally pro-establishment agenda.

Is there a Marxist element? Yes, undoubtedly. How important is it, compared to other factors? For the majority of protestors, it's not really relevant at all. Can you prove that? Err, well no. But then I can't prove that negotiating for cheaper space flight isn't more or less significant, either, because there are no comparable stats.

Trying to prove the relative importance of different elements withing a chaotic and constantly evolving movement is very difficult. Trying to prove the relative importance of "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" that may or may not have actually been relevant in the first place is totally impossible.

Lots of things get reported. Some of them are wholly or partially true, some not true at all.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, are we talking about *all* organisers of BLM protests? And do you have credible evidence to back that claim up? Bearing in mind BLM has lots of organisers or hardly any at all, depending on how you look at it.



Pepe
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24 Nov 2021, 1:39 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I didn't say everyone in the BLM *movement* is a Marxist.
I was saying it has been reported that the *organisers* are Marxists.


BLM is well-known for being a largely decentralised and relatively disorganised movement. In my view that's actually a good thing, it means the protests you see are more likely to be heartfelt than politically staged. On the other hand the same inclusivity that sees lots of protestors campaigning side by side, but often for very different individual reasons, means BLM as a whole is hard to define as anything more than a broad set of principles (or complaints).

That also leaves BLM wide open to negative interpretation by those elements of the media keen to do so. There are lots of factors involved which BLM protestors can't deny exist, but also can't quantify in terms of importance relative to other factors. Many of which might not be getting discussed at all, because that wouldn't suit the media's generally pro-establishment agenda.

Is there a Marxist element? Yes, undoubtedly. How important is it, compared to other factors? For the majority of protestors, it's not really relevant at all. Can you prove that? Err, well no. But then I can't prove that negotiating for cheaper space flight isn't more or less significant, either, because there are no comparable stats.

Trying to prove the relative importance of different elements withing a chaotic and constantly evolving movement is very difficult. Trying to prove the relative importance of "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" that may or may not have actually been relevant in the first place is totally impossible.

Lots of things get reported. Some of them are wholly or partially true, some not true at all.

Just for the avoidance of doubt, are we talking about *all* organisers of BLM protests? And do you have credible evidence to back that claim up? Bearing in mind BLM has lots of organisers or hardly any at all, depending on how you look at it.


How about a compromise?

*Some* BLM organisers are Marxists, especially the ones who may have pilfered donations to buy themselves million-dollar properties. 8)

I don't find this conclusive, btw.
There is room for speculation.

Quote:
Our rating: Missing context

The claim that Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Khan-Cullors bought four luxury homes is MISSING CONTEXT, because without additional information it could be misleading. While some social media users suggested that the purchases were evidence that Khan-Cullors had been enriched by the movement, our research revealed no evidence that Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation funds were used to purchase property. Khan-Cullors has held several other jobs in addition to her work as the organization’s volunteer executive director, including writing a memoir and developing content for Warner Brothers.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/fac ... 241450002/

Quote:
BLM Co-Founder Patrisse Khan-Cullors Under Fire for Purchasing Million-Dollar Homes in White Neighborhoods
by Jeroslyn JohnsonApril 12, 2021


After news of Khan-Cullors luxury living hit the press, other members of the Black Lives Matter organization called for an investigation. “If you go around calling yourself a socialist, you have to ask how much of her own personal money is going to charitable causes,” said Hawk Newsome, the head of Black Lives Matter Greater New York City. “It’s really sad because it makes people doubt the validity of the movement and overlook the fact that it’s the people that carry this movement.”

https://www.blackenterprise.com/blm-co- ... lar-homes/


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24 Nov 2021, 6:24 pm

"What is BLM?" is actually a whole other rabbit hole to go down, I've seen number as high as 10 billion dollars being donated to various groups within that orbit over the last few years, and no one really knows where the money went or what it was used for, it certainly doesn't seem to have been a good investment as far as ROI goes, we haven't managed even minimal police reform since the Floyd incident and the resulting unrest.


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24 Nov 2021, 6:36 pm

Dox47 wrote:
"What is BLM?" is actually a whole other rabbit hole to go down, I've seen number as high as 10 billion dollars being donated to various groups within that orbit over the last few years, and no one really knows where the money went or what it was used for, it certainly doesn't seem to have been a good investment as far as ROI goes, we haven't managed even minimal police reform since the Floyd incident and the resulting unrest.


While this is another rabbit hole, the number of $10 Billion is an estimate of global donations to all racial equity groups following the George Floyd protests.

BLM foundation in the US has opened its books for scrutiny and they managed to raise $90m which is nowhere near the number you are quoting.



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24 Nov 2021, 7:11 pm

Off Topic
When a movement advocates for redefining language, advocating for different version of US history, advocating a complete rearrangement or elimination of law enforcement, advocate for the end of the nuclear family, and engage in iconoclasm that movement is using marxian tactics, your movement is revolutionary. That not everyone participating believes in these things, that BLM emphasizes race not class, that there are disagreements does not negate that BLM is the above.

This is like all the people denying what happened Jan 6 was an attempted insurrection because most of people were standing outside peaceably, or because the Republican has Liz Cheney they are not an authoritarian party.


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24 Nov 2021, 8:09 pm

A cursory glance of historic movements stemming from women's rights at the turn of the 20th century through to BLM in 2020 will show that none of these movements has a negative impact on society. It is precisely because they are "progressive" in nature and intent,

The world never turned upside down when people were expected to watch their ps and qs. This is not about curtailing freedom of speech, it is about curtailing vilification,

This is also not a one-way street. We live in democracies where pushback is always permissible. But ranting parents storming school board meetings making incoherent complaints they parrot from their local GOP representative is neither productive or articulates anything that can be actioned.

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24 Nov 2021, 8:57 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Off Topic
When a movement advocates for redefining language, advocating for different version of US history, advocating a complete rearrangement or elimination of law enforcement, advocate for the end of the nuclear family, and engage in iconoclasm that movement is using marxian tactics, your movement is revolutionary. That not everyone participating believes in these things, that BLM emphasizes race not class, that there are disagreements does not negate that BLM is the above.

This is like all the people denying what happened Jan 6 was an attempted insurrection because most of people were standing outside peaceably, or because the Republican has Liz Cheney they are not an authoritarian party.


I realize people and positions and vary, but from what I've seen BLM as a broad concept isn't advocating for a different version of history, it is advocating that we be HONEST about history (doesn't mean select projects don't go a little further in an effort to push thought). The "different history" is what happened after the civil war as the south successfully rewrote and recast what actually happened. Nor is the poorly named "defunding" the police a COMPLETE rearrangement or elimination, but a recognition of changing realities and how they have affected the job. Nor have I heard anyone advocate the end of the nuclear family. So 3 strikes. But even if the movement is "revolutionary," applying the soft (non-violent) meaning of the word, perhaps it's more indicative of how stuck in the mud we are when it comes to actually achieving equality, rather than how radical they are. Wanting to have society recognize that your life matters should not be revolutionary.


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24 Nov 2021, 9:09 pm

Well it seems me that Wisconsin is just a hot bad for rioting crime chaos if I correct. We had the riots over Floyd, the riots over Blake, the riots over Rittenhouse and now there is the vehicular homicide that happened which may spark riots as well. Is there something up with Wisconsin perhaps, or what is going on there?



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24 Nov 2021, 9:12 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well it seems me that Wisconsin is just a hot bad for rioting crime chaos if I correct. We had the riots over Floyd, the riots over Blake, the riots over Rittenhouse and now there is the vehicular homicide that happened which may spark riots as well. Is there something up with Wisconsin perhaps, or what is going on there?


Portland Oregon seems like a popular protest town too.



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24 Nov 2021, 9:41 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well it seems me that Wisconsin is just a hot bad for rioting crime chaos if I correct. We had the riots over Floyd, the riots over Blake, the riots over Rittenhouse and now there is the vehicular homicide that happened which may spark riots as well. Is there something up with Wisconsin perhaps, or what is going on there?


Portland Oregon seems like a popular protest town too.


Both are fairly purple states right now, I believe.


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24 Nov 2021, 10:16 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Well it seems me that Wisconsin is just a hot bad for rioting crime chaos if I correct. We had the riots over Floyd, the riots over Blake, the riots over Rittenhouse and now there is the vehicular homicide that happened which may spark riots as well. Is there something up with Wisconsin perhaps, or what is going on there?


Portland Oregon seems like a popular protest town too.


Both are fairly purple states right now, I believe.


The state of Oregon may be, but the county in which Portland resides (Multnomah) voted for Mr Biden in a rather deep blue manner (79.21%) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_United_States_presidential_election_in_Oregon#Results_by_county

In fact, they have voted > 50% blue in each presidential election since 1984, with a Democrat winning the Presidential vote in the county each election since 1964 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multnomah_County,_Oregon


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25 Nov 2021, 11:15 am

One thing I find to be interesting and possibly a double standard in this case, is that in the US recently, there have been a lot of protests, about wanting defendants charged with crimes, to have more leeway in the court system, and that defendants generally do not have enough leeway.

But now the court gives a defendant quite a bit of leeway in the case, and a lot of Americans are not objecting to it, saying he got too much leeway. So is it a matter of a lot of people wanting to have their cake and eat it too, and they say they want leeway for defendants, but when it comes to a defendant they do not particularly like, they object to the same leeway, which they were fighting for in the first place?

They kept protesting that defendants do not get enough privelege, but now a defendant does, and they criticize it for being too privileged now. Instead of criticizing it, shouldn't they be defending it, since it's what they want?



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25 Nov 2021, 12:42 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Off Topic
When a movement advocates for redefining language, advocating for different version of US history, advocating a complete rearrangement or elimination of law enforcement, advocate for the end of the nuclear family, and engage in iconoclasm that movement is using marxian tactics, your movement is revolutionary. That not everyone participating believes in these things, that BLM emphasizes race not class, that there are disagreements does not negate that BLM is the above.

This is like all the people denying what happened Jan 6 was an attempted insurrection because most of people were standing outside peaceably, or because the Republican has Liz Cheney they are not an authoritarian party.


I realize people and positions and vary, but from what I've seen BLM as a broad concept isn't advocating for a different version of history, it is advocating that we be HONEST about history (doesn't mean select projects don't go a little further in an effort to push thought). The "different history" is what happened after the civil war as the south successfully rewrote and recast what actually happened. Nor is the poorly named "defunding" the police a COMPLETE rearrangement or elimination, but a recognition of changing realities and how they have affected the job. Nor have I heard anyone advocate the end of the nuclear family. So 3 strikes. But even if the movement is "revolutionary," applying the soft (non-violent) meaning of the word, perhaps it's more indicative of how stuck in the mud we are when it comes to actually achieving equality, rather than how radical they are. Wanting to have society recognize that your life matters should not be revolutionary.


Black Lives Matter Removes Language about Disrupting the Nuclear Family from Website
Apparently people did hear about it and complained. They quietly removed it, they did not publicly remove it, say we were mistaken etc.

I do mean revolutionary in the soft sense. If you want to radically change institutions you want not reform but revolutionary change. This movement wants to go further than equality, they desire equity which is equality of outcome, not just equality of opportunity.

It is beyond the literal meaning of the term “Black Lives Matter”. Way, Way, Way Way beyond that. “Black Lives Matter” has become massively effective slogan because its literal meaning is so simple and the only way one can oppose Black Lives Mattering is if one is a vile racist. Opposing BLM the movement is assumed to be racist by many people because “How can anyone oppose Black Lives Mattering?

Getting somewhat back on topic I think Rittenhouse’s support of the movement is based on the literal meaning of the term.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 25 Nov 2021, 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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25 Nov 2021, 1:28 pm

ironpony wrote:
One thing I find to be interesting and possibly a double standard in this case, is that in the US recently, there have been a lot of protests, about wanting defendants charged with crimes, to have more leeway in the court system, and that defendants generally do not have enough leeway.

But now the court gives a defendant quite a bit of leeway in the case, and a lot of Americans are not objecting to it, saying he got too much leeway. So is it a matter of a lot of people wanting to have their cake and eat it too, and they say they want leeway for defendants, but when it comes to a defendant they do not particularly like, they object to the same leeway, which they were fighting for in the first place?

They kept protesting that defendants do not get enough privelege, but now a defendant does, and they criticize it for being too privileged now. Instead of criticizing it, shouldn't they be defending it, since it's what they want?


It depends on what political orientation the defendant has. 8)


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25 Nov 2021, 3:56 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Getting somewhat back on topic I think Rittenhouse’s support of the movement is based on the literal meaning of the term.


Really? you falling for his crap as well? It's called lip service. It means nothing, and if you read the response from BLM they think so as well.



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25 Nov 2021, 4:06 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Getting somewhat back on topic I think Rittenhouse’s support of the movement is based on the literal meaning of the term.


Really? you falling for his crap as well? It's called lip service. It means nothing, and if you read the response from BLM they think so as well.


You do realise this is simply your *opinion*, right?
You may be right, but we *really* don't know. :wink:


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Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,


"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet." Humour is not meant to be taken seriously, yet many pervert its intent.
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)


I luv KFC!