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riley
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02 Sep 2014, 11:10 am

AspieUtah wrote:
riley wrote:
...In regard to brain damage causing autism.. sorry but it does happen and can be a factor. It is not "separate from" if it creates symptoms of autism then it IS autism.. and as I said before ASD is just a set of symptoms. If someone's ASD is found to be caused by brain damage it is still autism they are not suddenly disqualified from having that label.

Yep. That is the diagnostic status quo unless and until a genetic ASD test is available.

As for other non-ASD disorders and diseases being caused by drugs (legal and otherwise) and their interactions, the literature is abundant and quite emphatic about the risks:

WorstPills.org: ?Drug-induced diseases? (2014)
https://www.worstpills.org/public/page.cfm?op_id=5

CDC.gov: ?Developmental disabilities and the environment? (2012)
http://ephtracking.cdc.gov/showDevelopm ... Env.action

TheArc.org: ?Causes and prevention of intellectual disabilities? (2011)
http://www.thearc.org/page.aspx?pid=2453

NIH.gov: ?Substance abuse treatment for persons with co-occurring disorders? (2005)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64178

BMJ.com ?Prescribed drugs and neurological complications? (2004)
http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/75/suppl_3/iii2.full

BMJ.com: ?Recreational drugs and their neurological consequences? (2004)
http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/75/suppl_3/iii9.full

Why then is there such resistence to the idea that certain other drugs and the interactions might cause ASD or ASD symptoms, as well? As you wrote elsewhere, it is because Thorsen said so in a tainted study.

Thanks for your contributions to this topic.


..and thankyou for answering and also posting actual descriptions on the studies. :)

I do think there is a genetic component to some forms of ASD. Of course most people are aware that there seems to be a higher rate of auto immune problems in people with ASD. I believe this is another significant genetic component which may lead them to become more prone to having auto-immune reactions to things like gluten, casein and yes to things like vaccines and other medical products. Also there has been some research into some ASD kids not being able to process neuro-toxins properly. This may mean someone who was meant to just be HFA end up having their symptoms exasperated putting them on the more severe end of the spectrum. I also think trauma, PTSD etc in childhood may also contribute to the worsening of symptoms as sustained cortisol production in the brain would have long term if not permanent effects.

I have also been looking at Donna Williams site and her explaining that autism is like "fruit salad". There can be many factors that create symptoms enough to create an autistic state. Just because some triggers may be environmental does not invalidate their diagnosis.

As to why some people are so adamant that drugs and interactions don't cause symptoms.. I have been watching autism culture for quite some time and there are some that view autism as a mere "neurological difference" (some believe an evolutionary mutation making them superior..). That is okay for them but they cannot speak for those who have autism so badly that they'll never be able to take care of themselves.



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02 Sep 2014, 11:50 am

riley wrote:
..and thankyou for answering and also posting actual descriptions on the studies. :)

I do think there is a genetic component to some forms of ASD. Of course most people are aware that there seems to be a higher rate of auto immune problems in people with ASD. I believe this is another significant genetic component which may lead them to become more prone to having auto-immune reactions to things like gluten, casein and yes to things like vaccines and other medical products. Also there has been some research into some ASD kids not being able to process neuro-toxins properly. This may mean someone who was meant to just be HFA end up having their symptoms exasperated putting them on the more severe end of the spectrum. I also think trauma, PTSD etc in childhood may also contribute to the worsening of symptoms as sustained cortisol production in the brain would have long term if not permanent effects.

I have also been looking at Donna Williams site and her explaining that autism is like "fruit salad". There can be many factors that create symptoms enough to create an autistic state. Just because some triggers may be environmental does not invalidate their diagnosis.

As to why some people are so adamant that drugs and interactions don't cause symptoms.. I have been watching autism culture for quite some time and there are some that view autism as a mere "neurological difference" (some believe an evolutionary mutation making them superior..). That is okay for them but they cannot speak for those who have autism so badly that they'll never be able to take care of themselves.

I also have severe idiopathic osteoporosis and osteoarthritis (especially in my spine) which causes spinal-cord impingement, radiculopathy, DDD, stenosis, etc. As a result of the OP, every single one of my physicians has simply shrugged and offered various drug treatments. Only my nurse practitioner (in the United States, NPs are authorized to do almost everything a medical doctor can do except perform invasive treatment) has been willing to explore outside the box of the medical industry. She and I have suspected (but not diagnosed) certain disorders like malabsorption syndrome to explain what the MDs have admitted having no clue about. My experiences with my physical diabilities disposes me to disagree with any medical industry sycophant. I have tritated or stopped most of the pharmaceutical drugs that were prescribed to me and, as such, have never felt (and tested) better. My physical experiences (and learning that the Ancel Keys heart-cholesterol research http://www.statinnation.net/ was also cherrypicked) tell me that there is something more to the medical industry overall than what is claimed, including the rocketing increase of ASD diagnoses in just the last decade. It isn't just increased awareness, in my opinion. I agree with Donna Williams' description of the "fruit salad" effect of autism and its mutiple reasons why such an increase has and continues to happen.


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02 Sep 2014, 12:12 pm

JONRAPPOPORT: "Delivery for Ms Cohen: Videograms from the Moms." (August 30, 2014)
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/ ... m-the-moms

JONRAPPOPORT: "Vaccines cause brain damage: the mothers know" (September 2, 2014)
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/ ... thers-know

[quote=]...The mothers know.

They know what happened to their children. They don?t need sophisticated analyses. They don?t need disease or disorder labels. They don?t need the very doctors who administered the vaccines turning around and lying to them....[/quote]


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02 Sep 2014, 12:33 pm

Tripedia®, Diphtheria and Tetanus Toxoids and Acellular Pertussis Vaccine Adsorbed (DtaP)
Product Information Insert; December 2005
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsb ... 101580.pdf
(Sanofi pasteur has discontinued the supply of Tripedia http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccin ... 101565.htm and supplies will not available; 2013)

Quote:
?Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.? --Page 11, paragraph 3.

DtaP vaccines aren?t the MMR vaccines described in this topic, but, I believe that this is an example of how certain drugs showed an above-average number of autistic adverse reactions.


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Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


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02 Sep 2014, 12:46 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
...The mothers know.

They know what happened to their children. They don?t need sophisticated analyses. They don?t need disease or disorder labels. They don?t need the very doctors who administered the vaccines turning around and lying to them....


The mothers know that their child was vaccinated and has autism. They do not know that the vaccine caused the autism...

In the 40s, it was believed that ice cream caused polio.

These are correlative observations... not causative ones.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc


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AspergianMutantt
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02 Sep 2014, 12:53 pm

Oh come on, EVERYONE knows playing with your self while looking at porn will make you go blind!


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beneficii
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02 Sep 2014, 12:53 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
Just for the record, when it comes to scientific papers, the authors are almost exclesively listed in order of their contributions. In studies where the final paper has many authors, the last one or two "authors" are generally just people who did much editing, co-ordinated the logistics of the lab, or did fact checking. I have been listed as an "author" on dozens of papers that I will never put on my resume because my sole contribution was either related to grammar and syntax or verifying extensive amounts of data and calculations were correctly transferred to the final draft. For one paper where the amount of data to be reviewed was particularly massive, I was actually listed 3rd out of 6 with the last being an English grad student with a specialty in technical and scientific writing.

There is also a difference between the person "leading" a study (which often refers to the name of the person on the grant application and handles the financial aspects of a study) and the people actually doing the research. Most news outlets (and "news outlets," for that matter), do not realize this and can incorrectly give the impression (or outright falsely state) that a person who mainly ordered scientific equipment, recruited researchers, and what essentially boils down to handling time cards is a lead investigator.

So just remember that the further from first the author is listed, the less input they had. Sometimes the first two names are switched (often to help recognize promising up and coming grad students or promising newcomers), but that is rarely the case.


Thank you for this! We see that in the studies Thorsen participated in, he was never the first and in one was more toward the end.


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riley
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02 Sep 2014, 1:09 pm

Feralucce wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
...The mothers know.

They know what happened to their children. They don?t need sophisticated analyses. They don?t need disease or disorder labels. They don?t need the very doctors who administered the vaccines turning around and lying to them....


The mothers know that their child was vaccinated and has autism. They do not know that the vaccine caused the autism...

In the 40s, it was believed that ice cream caused polio.

These are correlative observations... not causative ones.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc


Yeah okay. Clearly you have never witnessed a baby suffer from encephalopathy after vaccines and regress within days into autism afterwards. I've seen it for myself, they almost died and it is not a nice thing to witness or remember and I certainly do not like having someone dismiss witnessing basic cause and effect by comparing it to polio and eating icecream. Not correlation. Saying that is correlation is like saying someone getting hit by a car and discovering their legs are broken is just a coincidence. It is also woefully disrespectful and arrogant to presume YOU know better than they do and to imply parents are just being fickle and listening to play boy bunnies. No. They have witnessed REAL tragedies first hand. Stop spreading your ignorance. You have NOT walked in their shoes so do not presume you know why they do not trust vaccine safety.



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02 Sep 2014, 1:43 pm

riley wrote:

Yeah okay. Clearly you have never witnessed a baby suffer from encephalopathy after vaccines and regress within days into autism afterwards. I've seen it for myself, they almost died and it is not a nice thing to witness or remember and I certainly do not like having someone dismiss witnessing basic cause and effect by comparing it to polio and eating icecream. Not correlation. Saying that is correlation is like saying someone getting hit by a car and discovering their legs are broken is just a coincidence. It is also woefully disrespectful and arrogant to presume YOU know better than they do and to imply parents are just being fickle and listening to play boy bunnies. No. They have witnessed REAL tragedies first hand. Stop spreading your ignorance. You have NOT walked in their shoes so do not presume you know why they do not trust vaccine safety.


Why are you responding to anything I say?


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02 Sep 2014, 7:59 pm

Anecdotal evidence has no place in the scientific process.



riley
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02 Sep 2014, 8:16 pm

Anecdotal evidence would be eye witness testimonies if parents were allowed to sue.



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02 Sep 2014, 8:19 pm

PlainsAspie wrote:
Anecdotal evidence has no place in the scientific process.

The European Journal of Public Health disagreed somewhat in 2006 with that statement.

NIH.gov: "Does qualitative synthesis of anecdotal evidence with that from scientific research help in understanding public health issues: a review of low MMR uptake." (2006)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16446303

Eur J Public Health wrote:
Anecdotal evidence may contribute to evidence-based public health practice, especially in widely debated public health issues.


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02 Sep 2014, 9:03 pm

JONRAPPOPORT: "Time Magazine accidentally reveals greater autism fraud" (September 2, 2014)
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/ ... tism-fraud

Quote:
Time Magazine (8/28) is covering the ongoing CDC whistleblower scandal. (?Whistleblower Claims CDC Covered Up Data Showing Vaccine-Autism Link,? by Alice Park)

In one piece of one sentence, without meaning to, the article blows another hole in the 2004 study that whistleblower William Thompson exposed as a fraud.

A hole beyond what Thompson has admitted to in his public mea culpa statement of August 27th.

What Time Magazine revealed demonstrates that the entire study is based on a lie.

Here is the sentence-fragment from the Time article: 'Now one of the authors of a 2004 study that found similar vaccination rates among children with and without autism?'

There it is. For people who can see it....


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02 Sep 2014, 9:45 pm

Quote:
Is a whistleblower still a whistleblower if, after blowing it, he professes he didn?t even know he was holding a whistle in the first place?


Quote:
I contacted Dr. Frank DeStefano, the first author of the Pediatrics study, for comment, and received a reply from Health Communications Specialist Angela Fisher at the CDC. She directed me to the Centers? official statement on the controversy, which explains why some data about the race of studied children were omitted, and why a slight increase detected in the incidence of autism amongst vaccinated children was likely related requirements for enrollment in preschool special education programs. It also notes that further studies and reviews have found no relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism.


Quote:
So not only were whatever qualms Dr. Thompson had insufficient to have him remove his name from the original study, they were neither enough to make him speak out publicly in the decade since nor have him willingly attach his name to any effort to debunk it. Not a lot of air tooting that whistle, no matter what the video would lead viewers to believe.


Quote:
Wakefield, the granddaddy of the anti-vaccine movement, whose own study was retracted by The Lancet and whose license to practice medicine in Britain was revoked, has used Dr. Thompson in a way that he claims not to have intended, as neither Wakefield nor Dr. Hooker had the compunction to inform him that he was being recorded or used in the video. Further, Wakefield wasn?t content to merely go full Godwin by invoking Hitler?he chose to make reference to Stalin and Pol Pot, too. Why he didn?t throw in reference to the Salem witch trials and the Challenger disaster for good measure is beyond me. Please note that these monsters of the 20th century are compared favorably to the CDC study?s authors.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -hero.html

These people are no different from the creationists and climate change denialists in the amount of rank dishonesty they are willing to commit. And it's because they all know one important thing: They lost in the scientific and medical communities. All they've got left is an unsuspecting public.


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02 Sep 2014, 9:59 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
PlainsAspie wrote:
Anecdotal evidence has no place in the scientific process.

The European Journal of Public Health disagreed somewhat in 2006 with that statement.

NIH.gov: "Does qualitative synthesis of anecdotal evidence with that from scientific research help in understanding public health issues: a review of low MMR uptake." (2006)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16446303

Eur J Public Health wrote:
Anecdotal evidence may contribute to evidence-based public health practice, especially in widely debated public health issues.


Ummm... you are mis-stating your case here... The author of the paper states taht... the Eur Journal Published the paper... they did not weigh in on the subject.

The conclusion states that anecdotal evidence may change public health practices...

Read the results:
The review of technical literature identified media scare and inadequate information from health professionals as the main reasons for non-uptake of MMR. The non-technical anecdotal evidence showed that professionals' belief in parental right to choose, target payments and fear of autism were the major factors.

And the objective:
To explore the professional and parental factors underlying low MMR uptake by qualitative synthesis of evidence from technical and non-technical anecdotal literature.

The author investigated why MMR vaccines weren't being taken and found that non-technical information (anecdotal "evidence") was the root cause... Because horror stories are affecting medical practice.

I suggest you read the entire article:
http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/16/1/85.full <-- here it is


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03 Sep 2014, 6:31 am

AspieUtah wrote:
JONRAPPOPORT: "Time Magazine accidentally reveals greater autism fraud" (September 2, 2014)
http://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2014/ ... tism-fraud

Quote:
Time Magazine (8/28) is covering the ongoing CDC whistleblower scandal. (?Whistleblower Claims CDC Covered Up Data Showing Vaccine-Autism Link,? by Alice Park)

In one piece of one sentence, without meaning to, the article blows another hole in the 2004 study that whistleblower William Thompson exposed as a fraud.

A hole beyond what Thompson has admitted to in his public mea culpa statement of August 27th.

What Time Magazine revealed demonstrates that the entire study is based on a lie.

Here is the sentence-fragment from the Time article: 'Now one of the authors of a 2004 study that found similar vaccination rates among children with and without autism?'

There it is. For people who can see it....


I don't understand how this shows anything other than further confirmation that there is no link between autism and vaccines.


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