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Dylann Roof's lawyers appeal death sentence citing autism

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cyberdad
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01 Feb 2020, 5:14 pm

Bravo5150 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Severe preoccupation with racist material
He has a strong need for order
Fundamentally, she seems to blame the autistic traits of SOCIAL ISOLATION + LITERALNESS + "Special interest" (Preoccupation).
She says: "Without input from competing views, Dylan went on online, and read and believed misinformation about African Americans and developed a strong preoccupation with racism".


You do realise if the court accepts this then it sends a message to the public that autism is a risk factor behind becoming a mass murderer or serial killer.

Much of roof's paranoia about African Americans could be explained by his schizophrenia which may be a more pertinent trigger


I think I have heard of obesity and other physical health as being an argument to not go through with the death penalty. It doesn't necessarily equate to everyone on blood pressure meds is a murderer.


Yes I am sure there is a checklist of conditions that might delay or prevent the death penalty. Plenty of murderers have been sent to psychiatric wards and then released back in the public without serving time. Some have gained notoriety and fame after their acts
https://timeline.com/tanya-tarasoff-not ... 43951cb004
https://allthatsinteresting.com/issei-sagawa



cyberdad
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01 Feb 2020, 5:17 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
The criminal justice system does not exist to be sensitive to people with disabilities or to be concerned with the public's perception of a group of people.

When a citizen's freedom or life is at stake the attorney that defends them has the right and the legal obligation to use any tool at his disposal to defend his client,that is the system.


There are two opposing pressures here
i) what the criminal justice system decides is sufficient evidence to say the person is not of "fit mind" to stand trial or whether the evidence in can reduce their sentence
ii) What rights does the defence counsel have to draw upon extenuating circumstances to either exonerate or reduce the sentence



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01 Feb 2020, 5:37 pm

cyberdad wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Severe preoccupation with racist material
He has a strong need for order
Fundamentally, she seems to blame the autistic traits of SOCIAL ISOLATION + LITERALNESS + "Special interest" (Preoccupation).
She says: "Without input from competing views, Dylan went on online, and read and believed misinformation about African Americans and developed a strong preoccupation with racism".


You do realise if the court accepts this then it sends a message to the public that autism is a risk factor behind becoming a mass murderer or serial killer.

Much of roof's paranoia about African Americans could be explained by his schizophrenia which may be a more pertinent trigger

What schizophrenia (delusions)?

His motivation comes from reading and believing material on the internet.

If anything, he seems simple-minded.

Image


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cyberdad
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01 Feb 2020, 5:40 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Severe preoccupation with racist material
He has a strong need for order
Fundamentally, she seems to blame the autistic traits of SOCIAL ISOLATION + LITERALNESS + "Special interest" (Preoccupation).
She says: "Without input from competing views, Dylan went on online, and read and believed misinformation about African Americans and developed a strong preoccupation with racism".


You do realise if the court accepts this then it sends a message to the public that autism is a risk factor behind becoming a mass murderer or serial killer.

Much of roof's paranoia about African Americans could be explained by his schizophrenia which may be a more pertinent trigger

What schizophrenia (delusions)?

His motivation comes from reading and believing material on the internet.

If anything, he seems simple-minded.

Image


Yes but is this constellation of conditions sufficient to let him off death row? will he be sent back to psychiatric ward and then in the distant future be released?



vermontsavant
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02 Feb 2020, 12:14 am

cyberdad wrote:
There are two opposing pressures here
i) what the criminal justice system decides is sufficient evidence to say the person is not of "fit mind" to stand trial or whether the evidence in can reduce their sentence
ii) What rights does the defence counsel have to draw upon extenuating circumstances to either exonerate or reduce the sentence

The defense has the right to try anything they can find to defend there client, whether or not it will work is a different story.

It's hard to say what is sufficient mitigation to reduce or commute a sentence,it varies from judge to judge and state to state.


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cyberdad
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02 Feb 2020, 2:04 am

vermontsavant wrote:
It's hard to say what is sufficient mitigation to reduce or commute a sentence,it varies from judge to judge and state to state.


This seems to be the crucial question when it comes to Dylan Roof who is now trying to pin his crime on autism. I have read that 70% of prisoners in the US system have some undiagnosed mental illness so Roof's diagnosis if validated by the judge could be a last ditch effort



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02 Feb 2020, 7:47 am

cyberdad wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
It's hard to say what is sufficient mitigation to reduce or commute a sentence,it varies from judge to judge and state to state.


This seems to be the crucial question when it comes to Dylan Roof who is now trying to pin his crime on autism. I have read that 70% of prisoners in the US system have some undiagnosed mental illness so Roof's diagnosis if validated by the judge could be a last ditch effort
It's far from a last ditch effort,the appeals process is lenthly and takes years,sometimes decades.It can sometimes take 20 years for the appeals process to run out.Thats why death penalty opponents say the death penalty is more expensive than life in prison.

I wouldn't say there trying to pin the crime on autism,there just looking for a mitigating factor to get a commutation to life in prison.Death penalty appeals attorney's don't generally get involved in innocence or guilt,just saving the life from a death sentence.There have been a few rare cases of death row exonerations but those came about usually because of DNA testing or a witness recanting there previous testimony.There is nothing so profound as that in Roof's case,he will die in prison either way.


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EzraS
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02 Feb 2020, 10:45 am

I do not think the idea is claiming he killed those people because he has autism.

I think the idea is; "hey he has autism, he is neurologically disabled, cut him a little bit of slack".

I think the idea is trying to evoke a little bit of sympathy.



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02 Feb 2020, 11:16 am

EzraS wrote:
I do not think the idea is claiming he killed those people because he has autism.

I think the idea is; "hey he has autism, he is neurologically disabled, cut him a little bit of slack".

I think the idea is trying to evoke a little bit of sympathy.
You have got the point,there just trying to find a mitigating factor that could spare Roof from the death penalty.


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02 Feb 2020, 1:17 pm

It seems prejudice to single out autistic people and declare "NO AUTISM DEFENSE".

Almost nothing in this reality is absolute.

Abused, oppressed, laughed at, "wrong", "different" are surely possible casual factors for criminal behavior.


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02 Feb 2020, 2:45 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
It seems prejudice to single out autistic people and declare "NO AUTISM DEFENSE".

Almost nothing in this reality is absolute.

Abused, oppressed, laughed at, "wrong", "different" are surely possible casual factors for criminal behavior.
There is nothing in the legal system that says you can't use autism as a defense,it has been used many times,I don't know off hand the success rate.Mental disease or defect defenses rarely work,you have to be barking at the moon crazy to get off on insanity.But such defenses can mitigate sentencing,like in the Dylann Roof case there just trying to avoid a death sentence,there not disputing guilt.


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ASPartOfMe
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02 Feb 2020, 3:00 pm

There is legitimate reason to fear that if the “autism defense” is used successfully to get people declared innocent by reason of insanity or lower sentences autistics will become widely seen as dangerous people. That would be worse then the “weird”, “loser”, or “ret*d” perceptions of us now.

If defense lawyers are successful with this tactic, more and more defense lawyers will use it and more as more and more autistic and psycho will be seen as synonymous. If the tactic fails defense lawyers will be discouraged from using it and it will be seen as trying to get bad people off on a technicality.

Any use of it propagates the people use autism as excuse for bad behavior stereotype. The right of people to be defended takes precedent but that does not mean the negative effects are not real thus we do have a duty to criticize careless use of the autism defense. There is a argument to be made that since autism is not known to directly cause criminal behavior any use of the autism defense is a careless use.


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02 Feb 2020, 3:24 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
There is legitimate reason to fear that if the “autism defense” is used successfully to get people declared innocent by reason of insanity or lower sentences autistics will become widely seen as dangerous people. That would be worse then the “weird”, “loser”, or “ret*d” perceptions of us now.

If defense lawyers are successful with this tactic, more and more defense lawyers will use it and more as more and more autistic and psycho will be seen as synonymous. If the tactic fails defense lawyers will be discouraged from using it and it will be seen as trying to get bad people off on a technicality.

Any use of it propagates the people use autism as excuse for bad behavior stereotype. The right of people to be defended takes precedent but that does not mean the negative effects are not real thus we do have a duty to criticize careless use of the autism defense. There is a argument to be made that since autism is not known to directly cause criminal behavior any use of the autism defense is a careless use.
I have said this before on this thread and I'll say it again.
The legal system doesn't exist to be sensitive to people with disabilities or concern it self with how people are perceived by society.The defense has the right to use any defense it deems fit or most usefull as long as it is reasonable and plausable(meaning at least it's half way believable)that is how the system works.

From time to time judges have been known to rule a defense can't be used in court,one example being,the 2nd trial of the Menendez brothers.Where the judge ruled they could't use pre-emptive self defense as a defense,which left Leslie Abrahms without a defense for her clients and her clients were both convicted.

But for the most part judges give a lot of leeway for defense attorney's to use the defense they see fit as long as the defense is somewhat plausable.


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02 Feb 2020, 6:33 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
BenderRodriguez wrote:
I really wonder - since The Robot seems to want to take a serious part in this discussion - why does she think people like us didn't act on such impulses or desires?

You don't seem to acknowledge it.

It was obviously my mistake to think you're honest and invite you to have a dialogue.

I'm quite edified now about your willingness and/or ability to explain your position.


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02 Feb 2020, 6:38 pm

EzraS wrote:
I do not think the idea is claiming he killed those people because he has autism.

I think the idea is; "hey he has autism, he is neurologically disabled, cut him a little bit of slack".


Indeed - especially taking into account Roof's own words:

Quote:
“I don’t have autism,” Roof said, according to the records. “I’m just a sociopath.”


His lawyer is probably quite exasperated with his client :lol:


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02 Feb 2020, 8:29 pm

BenderRodriguez wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
BenderRodriguez wrote:
I really wonder - since The Robot seems to want to take a serious part in this discussion - why does she think people like us didn't act on such impulses or desires?

You don't seem to acknowledge it.

It was obviously my mistake to think you're honest and invite you to have a dialogue.

I'm quite edified now about your willingness and/or ability to explain your position.

I've explained my position over and over.

Most recently …
----------------------------------------------------------
It seems prejudice to single out autistic people and declare "NO AUTISM DEFENSE".

Almost nothing in this reality is absolute.

Abused, oppressed, laughed at, "wrong", "different" are surely possible casual factors for criminal behavior.

Likely, autistic people kill themselves because of these factors.
----------------------------------------------------------

Earlier, I even explained how abuse caused me to do a criminal action.


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