Police shooting in Wisconsin,protests erupt

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Jiheisho
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29 Aug 2020, 12:49 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
He confessed because he did the shooting,that doesn't disprove self defense.

He only had to have reasonable believed his life was endanger and reasonably believed he had no escape route or ability to retreat to "absolute" safety,that's right absolute safety.

In all that confusion his lawyer can paint a picture that he was reasonable in believing he was in danger and had not the chance to retreat to ABSOLUTE safety.

I would think shooting his first victim many times, and once in his back would disprove an argument of self-defense.

That doesn't disprove that he had no reason to fear a serious threat for his safety.

If someone poses a threat one has the right to neutralize the threat,if it's a reasonably serious threat to ones safety.


Not if you are the aggressor. You can't antagonize a situation and then claim a right to self defense.



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29 Aug 2020, 12:50 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
^^^
I did not see anything like that I any of the videos

"Prosecutors say Rosenbaum was shot in the right groin, back and left hand and suffered a superficial gunshot wound to his left thigh and a graze wound to the right side of his forehead"
https://nypost.com/2020/08/28/kenosha-s ... armed-men/

5 shots and one was to his back.

It seems like the kid was trying to execute Mr. Rosenbaum.

After 1 shot, it seems likely Mr. Rosenbaum fell over in pain.

However, to shoot someone in the back, and argue it was self-defense takes a lot of imagination.

It should noted too, apparently Mr, Rosenbaum didn't have a weapon.


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Wolfram87
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29 Aug 2020, 12:59 pm

Rittenhouse sees someone with a gun. He runs. He hears someone fire a pistol behind him. He hears someone running approaching him from behind. He turns and fires. He fired multiple shots in rapid succession, as is proper in defensive shooting. One of the shots hitting in the back does by no means disprove self-defense on its own, because we don't know how the assailant moved.


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Not if you are the aggressor.


Having a gun does not make you the aggressor. Running at someone and firing a gun, on the other hand, does. Which is what Rosenbaum did.


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He purposely went to the protest with a gun, and not a pistol, but an AR-15. That is not a defensive action. When you purposely place yourself in a harmful situation and arm yourself to attack people, the theory of self defense does not really apply.


This is entirely your own bias. There is nothing at all that's less defensive about an AR-15 than a pistol. He went to a place of a riot to try and render aid, and brough self-defense measures. That thing on his back is a med kit. He and the guy taking off his shirt were starting to render aid to Rosenbaum, which might have saved his life if the mob hadn't attacked.


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29 Aug 2020, 1:11 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Having a gun does not make you the aggressor. Running at someone and firing a gun, on the other hand, does. Which is what Rosenbaum did.

No, it's reported that Rosenbaum didn't have a weapon.

He threw a plastic bag. That is all.


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29 Aug 2020, 1:17 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
^^^
I did not see anything like that I any of the videos

"Prosecutors say Rosenbaum was shot in the right groin, back and left hand and suffered a superficial gunshot wound to his left thigh and a graze wound to the right side of his forehead"
https://nypost.com/2020/08/28/kenosha-s ... armed-men/

5 shots and one was to his back.

It seems like the kid was trying to execute Mr. Rosenbaum.

After 1 shot, it seems likely Mr. Rosenbaum fell over in pain.

However, to shoot someone in the back, and argue it was self-defense takes a lot of imagination.

It should noted too, apparently Mr, Rosenbaum didn't have a weapon.
He may have been threatened by groups of rioters and it may have been clear in all the chaos who was actually threatening him,I believe someone tried to hit him with a skateboard(a dangerous weapon by definition).Possibly in a panic shot a who he thought was a serious present danger.

This will not be a "prove innocence case" this will be a reasonable doubt case" and his lawyers should be able to create doubt as to whether he killed with intention in cold blood without fear for his life.


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29 Aug 2020, 1:18 pm

Rewatched the clip, and it seems you're right. Rosenbaum did, however, run at Ritterhouse from the direction where someone just drew a pistol and fired.


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29 Aug 2020, 1:21 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Having a gun does not make you the aggressor. Running at someone and firing a gun, on the other hand, does. Which is what Rosenbaum did.

No, it's reported that Rosenbaum didn't have a weapon.

He threw a plastic bag. That is all.
In a heated situation with limited time to assess,the baggie could have contained a bomb,remember your in the mist of a riot.A bag plastic or paper or cloth could easily contain a bomb!


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Jiheisho
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29 Aug 2020, 1:22 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
This is entirely your own bias.


No, it isn't. The police don't think so either, which is why he was arrested. He purposely placed himself in harms way and armed himself. Self defense requires retreat first before taking violent action. He went to the protest anticipating violence. He should of stayed home if he believed that his life would have been threatened.

Pretty disturbing that people are defending the instigator. I wonder what this conversation would have been if a black person turned up to a right-wing protest and did the same thing...



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29 Aug 2020, 1:23 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Rewatched the clip, and it seems you're right. Rosenbaum did, however, run at Ritterhouse from the direction where someone just drew a pistol and fired.

Yes, it's reported that an unknown person fired at the same time.

What is also bad for Rittenhouse is that he appears to be far away from Rosenbaum when he kills him.

He appears to be what 10 feet+ away.

Yet, he claims self-defense against a man 10+ feet away with no weapon


Plus, he shoots him in the back from that distance.


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Jiheisho
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29 Aug 2020, 1:28 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Having a gun does not make you the aggressor. Running at someone and firing a gun, on the other hand, does. Which is what Rosenbaum did.

No, it's reported that Rosenbaum didn't have a weapon.

He threw a plastic bag. That is all.
In a heated situation with limited time to assess,the baggie could have contained a bomb,remember your in the mist of a riot.A bag plastic or paper or cloth could easily contain a bomb!


No one is arguing that the white shooter was an idiot that would first think that a trash bag would contain a bomb and not trash (although assuming that he did think is being generous). And that really is the problem: he went there looking for a fight. He was prepared to shoot someone. When you engage in a protest and assume you will need to use force, then there is no self-defense claim.



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29 Aug 2020, 1:41 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
This is entirely your own bias.


No, it isn't. The police don't think so either, which is why he was arrested. He purposely placed himself in harms way and armed himself. Self defense requires retreat first before taking violent action. He went to the protest anticipating violence. He should of stayed home if he believed that his life would have been threatened.

Pretty disturbing that people are defending the instigator. I wonder what this conversation would have been if a black person turned up to a right-wing protest and did the same thing...



He did retreat. He was pursued. He does not appear to be a strong runner. And again; he did not shoot first.

If a black person with a black rifle showed up to a right wing protest to put out fires, scrub grafitti and give first aid, while calmy practising proper trigger and muzzle discipline? I have a hard time imagining much would happen.


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He appears to be what 10 feet+ away.

Yet, he claims self-defense against a man 10+ feet away with no weapon


In self defense terms, 10 feet is nothing. 10 feet is a short enough distance that a person with a knife will kill you unless you've already got your weapon drawn.

And again, he was shot in multiple areas, one of which was the back. Without knowing how he moved, this means nothing.


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. When you engage in a protest and assume you will need to use force, then there is no self-defense claim.


If you go to a riot to render aid, you'd be an idiot not to be armed.


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The police don't think so either, which is why he was arrested.


He was arrested on suspicion of culpability in the shooting. It will be hard to be cleared of wrong-doing without first being charged.

Also, everyone there should have been arrested, as there was a curfew in effect.


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29 Aug 2020, 1:48 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
He did retreat.


Was that before or after he turned up to the protest armed...



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29 Aug 2020, 1:54 pm

it was after the guy who was unarmed attempted and failed to take his gun from him twice, which is already assault. it was after something that was supposedly a trashbag, but others say was a lit molotov cocktail was thrown in his direction. And it was after someone drew a gun and fired in his direction.

And feel free to stop pretending this wasn't an ongoing riot any time you like.


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29 Aug 2020, 1:58 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Having a gun does not make you the aggressor. Running at someone and firing a gun, on the other hand, does. Which is what Rosenbaum did.

No, it's reported that Rosenbaum didn't have a weapon.

He threw a plastic bag. That is all.
In a heated situation with limited time to assess,the baggie could have contained a bomb,remember your in the mist of a riot.A bag plastic or paper or cloth could easily contain a bomb!


No one is arguing that the white shooter was an idiot that would first think that a trash bag would contain a bomb and not trash (although assuming that he did think is being generous). And that really is the problem: he went there looking for a fight. He was prepared to shoot someone. When you engage in a protest and assume you will need to use force, then there is no self-defense claim.
His lawyers could argue in the mist of a riot a bag's contents could be a bomb,it's possible,likelihood is not an issue,only is it possible,this is what lawyers argue in court.

If something is possible the jury by law must take into consideration.When a forensic criminalist testifies about a DNA match they usually say something like the odds of someone else having the same DNA is 1 in 5.7 million or something.
If the best a medical witness could say is that the DNA is exclusive to 1 in 10,000 then the prosecution wouldn't even put him on the stand.Because 1 in 10 thousand makes it possible someone else left the DNA,POSSIBLE is a big word in court.


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Wolfram87
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29 Aug 2020, 2:05 pm

https://twitter.com/i/status/1298530439389487105

Looks pretty flaming for a trashbag.


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29 Aug 2020, 2:14 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1298530439389487105

Looks pretty flaming for a trashbag.
You proved my argument,thank you

@my naysayer's Not only is it possible a bag could contain a bomb but indeed it actually did.


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