Putin recognizes rebel territories in Ukraine as indepent !

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 11:54 am

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

Domestic abuse seems like a strange analogy but Ukraine isn't "leaving". Ukraine has been independent of Russia for a number of decades now.

"Independent" as long as the president does what Kremlin approves. Who do you think was poisoning Yushchenko and why?

And you know what started Maidan - Ukrainian government negotiated associate contract with EU and then Yanukovych "mysteriously" refused to sign it before things got hot with mass protests and he fled to Russia, after which all the Russian "little green men" interventions started.

You could as well claim that Poland was independent when it was a USSR satellite.

Ukraine is trying to leave Russian "zone of influence" and they're paying enormous price for it. But let's be clear about it: abuse is always fault of the abuser. Always.

A victim of Geography. They knew the best bet was to remain neutral rather than invite a known enemy of their neighbour into their land. He "refused" to sign it because he was under pressure from Russia...hardly surprising considering it's the same equivalent of the pressure Mexico will come under if they invited Russia or China to make use of their bases and park whatever military equipment they like on their soil. Lets not pretend the US or even Europe wouldn't do the same. We all know they will.

I believe the US actually got pretty angry with Cuba a long time ago for that very reason. This reminds me a lot of the Cuban missile crisis, only Russia is actually being reasonably well behaved for a change up until now. If it wasn't for advances in tech and nuclear missiles submarines, Ukraine would have had NATO missiles on it's land sooner or later too.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 12:02 pm

The way you talk about it resurfaces all the bitter feelings after Yalta, really.
We're "victims of geography", too. We were "victims of geography" in September 1939, when we got attacked from both west and east. Should we have remained neutral, too?
Maybe with nations it's like with people - you have empathy to someone you can relate to and lack of similar experiences makes you blind to one's situation.
How can you remain neutral when someone remote controls your president and grabs parts of your land?

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 12:20 pm

magz wrote:

You mean the modern day equivalent of Ukraine being attacked by NATO and Russia at the same time? Well, yeah, that's clearly not a time for neutrality.

Today in reality it's the equivalent of Ukraine siding with Nazi Germany or Russia and getting nailed by the opposing super power. Not really the same as Poland in 1939.

That's the thing that irks me the most. I would have had a lot more respect for Ukraine, along with a much bigger desire for them getting military assistance if Russia invaded them after trying to remain neutral.

Remote control and land grabbing is subjective too. Remote control as in Putin telling Ukraine not to side with NATO? Land grabbing as in taking Crimea which poses a threat to Russia in NATO hands after showing great interest in joining NATO? It's hardly mindless annexing and had plenty of warning beforehand.

I really don't understand how this is any different to the treatment Cuba was getting during the Cuban missile crisis.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 12:24 pm

If you see NATO as an equivalent of Nazi Germany then you should study history a bit more.

You basically claim that Russia had right to attack Ukraine and seize their territories because they didn't like Ukrainian politics.

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 12:28 pm

magz wrote:

You brought up the Nazi Germany analogy and relating it to Ukraine being stuck between two super powers though.

If their politics means NATO missiles, aircraft, ships and troops are on Russia's border then Ukrainian territory, from Russians eyes poses a threat to them. Strategically Ukraine poses a bigger threat to Russia with it's location than any other nation.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 12:31 pm

I was refering to your "victims of geography" term that you seem to use as just a shrug off.
It's a tragedy to be a "victim of geography" and "victims of geography" deserve support.
Especially from other potential "victims of geography" - but also from anyone decent.

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 12:39 pm

magz wrote:

Lets replace "Victims of Geography" and "Ukraine" with "NATO's giant unsinkable aircraft carrier that blocks all of Russian southern sea access " and it makes more sense why they're attacking that aircraft carrier.

Sort of like that "Giant Cuban nuclear missile submarine island of death" the US shown extreme hostility towards many decades ago.

If someone is in a difficult geographical position, then don't p**s off the neighbours.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 12:44 pm

Nades wrote:

Lets replace "Victims of Geography" and "Ukraine" with "NATO's giant unsinkable aircraft carrier that blocks all of Russian southern sea access "

1. Not nearly NATO yet;
2. "...inhabited by 45 million people, mostly civilians, with their own opinions, ambitions, business plans and growing number of individuals who have experienced different life in the West"

You keep ignoring there are people there.

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 12:54 pm

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

Lets replace "Victims of Geography" and "Ukraine" with "NATO's giant unsinkable aircraft carrier that blocks all of Russian southern sea access "

1. Not nearly NATO yet;
2. "...inhabited by 45 million people with their own opinions, ambitions and growing experiences of different life in the West"

But it was certainly going to be "NATO's giant unsinkable aircraft carrier that blocks all of Russian southern sea access" and Putin knew it.

That's an emotional argument and not one of practicality that solves Russian concerns over NATO weapons and the tightening noose on Russia's sea access. Sort out the latter and the former will probably correct itself. It's pointless focusing on the people when the bigger issues remain unsolved.

It's like having angry dogs running loose in your garden that hate your neighbour and trying to repair bad blood while refusing to do anything about the dogs. Sort of pointless really.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 1:00 pm

Russian goal is to rebuild their empire and nothing short of letting them do it would "solve their concerns".
I am someone who in such a scenario would be likely to end up in the said empire. And you know what? Hard not to react emotionally when you know what it means.

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funeralxempire
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23 Feb 2022, 1:12 pm

Nades wrote:

It's like having angry dogs running loose in your garden that hate your neighbour and trying to repair bad blood while refusing to do anything about the dogs. Sort of pointless really.

In this case the angry dogs in question are Putin's territorial ambitions and the solution that serves the most people's interests might involve putting down those dogs and their owner, should things escalate in that direction.

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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.

Pepe
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23 Feb 2022, 5:13 pm

Nades wrote:

Pepe wrote:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate", still.

"READ MY LIPS!"
Eastern NATO members had a bloody good reason to join NATO for protection.
If you can't accept this, we will have to agree to disagree.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

As per usual.

Pepe
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23 Feb 2022, 5:15 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Nades wrote:

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

It's an issue the civilians should bring up with the Ukrainian government.

Can you expand?

I think they should put pressure on the Ukrainian government to at least acknowledge the concerns of the Russian government which are more than valid in my opinion. Only then can any sort of comprise be reached.

Ukraine are in an unfortunate geographical position and they need to work with the hand they're dealt in that sense.

I just declared Nades' bank account to be...an "independent country"! :lol:

And I will now send in my peacekeeping force (myself) to Wales, and to Nades' bank, to watch over his bank account for safe keeping. And ... the safest thing to do with his bank account is to pay off my credit cards, and then...use whats left over to ...go to Vegas for my holiday! :lol:

Oh...

And your car is ALSO now... an independent country!

I'll watch your six while you do it.
For a small fee, of course.

Pepe
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23 Feb 2022, 5:21 pm

magz wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Eastern NATO members had a bloody good reason to join NATO for protection.

That's precisely what I'm trying to say, from my very concerned position.

You are not "Trying".
Your position is very firm and crystal clear, and anyone who is oblivious to the fact *you* *and your family* is on the *front line* of pootin's imperialism is, quite frankly, ignorant, unsympathetic and a disgrace.
Simply my opinion, of course.

No offence to the unsympathetic people out there.

<Pepe thinks>
<why are the bristles on the back of my neck pricking up as a result of some people's ignorance?>
<most unlike Pepe>
<curious>

Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2022, 5:33 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I just don’t want the Putin Authoritarian Concept to spread.

Putin wants to spread this concept far and wide.

It's interesting that King George of England has the opportunity to send in troops into Moscow and rescue his first cousin the Tsar and his family (including Queen Victoria's grand-daughter) from the bolsheviks but he chose not to.

The stubbornness of King George to help his own family may well have changed the course of world history. Had the Tsar survived there likely would never have been communism in Russia or later in China.

What does one thing have to do with the other?

It would have been nice to save the lives of the Russian Royal Family by extracting them from Moscow and whisking them away to Britain. But preventing the Bolshiviks from executing them would not have stopped the rise of Soviet Communism- the Russian Royals wouldnt have needed rescuing if the Reds didnt already control the capital and the heartland of Russia.

Just stating an interesting fact.

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Pepe
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23 Feb 2022, 5:36 pm

magz wrote:

You're still missing the main part: Eastern European countries joined NATO because we knew some day Russia would start doing what it's doing now. Without NATO, Russia would just do it more easily.

Tsars did imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Soviets did thinly veiled imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Putin is a worthy descendant of this old tradition.

I'm staggered that *everyone* can't see this.

I don't see the following as an ad hominem. I see it as a a possible explanation:

Perhaps, some people lack both life experience and historic knowledge?
Perhaps some people need to beef up their understanding of human psychology?

I don't think Latvians, Estonian, Lithuanians, and Poles are impressed with captain psychopath and his megalomaniacal machinations and the people who are acting as his apologists.

I suggest those who are ignorant of the facts research soviet atrocities in all those countries.
Gulags, mass executions and genocide through man-made famines, anyone?

"It is not a sin to be ignorant...
The sin is staying ignorant..."

And please, don't tell me Russian imperialism doesn't exist. :roll:

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