[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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TwilightPrincess
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15 Nov 2023, 10:37 pm

Most deaths have been civilian casualties. They have not gone out of their way to avoid killing innocent people or members of the press. They’ve also engaged in a variety of war crimes.

Why compare them to the US at all? Many here do not agree with the US’s War on Terror, perhaps the same people who disapprove of the IDF’s horrific behavior.



cyberdad
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15 Nov 2023, 10:42 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Most deaths have been civilian casualties. They have not gone out of their way to avoid killing innocent people or members of the press. They’ve also engaged in a variety of war crimes


We are currently relying on HAMAS filtered data on casualties and war crimes, The purpose of the ground offensive is to avoid killing civilians in hospitals and schools where HAMAS are taking shelter and firing missiles. Otherwise Israel just has to sit while HAMAS happily pepper them with projectiles, No sane country would just sit there and take it.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/14/poli ... index.html



TwilightPrincess
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15 Nov 2023, 10:46 pm

I wouldn’t entirely trust data from either side. Both have a pattern of lying.

According to humanitarian groups on the scene, it would seem as though a lot of people are dying.

Israel has choices. I don’t think they are making the correct ones.



cyberdad
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16 Nov 2023, 12:36 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Israel has choices. I don’t think they are making the correct ones.


Actually when it comes to actual decisions - even left wing pro-Palestinian sources admit -Israel cannot simply do nothing. Governments have an obligation to protect their citizens. With Israelis still sifting through evidence of torture, and captives languishing in Hamas custody, nearly everyone in Israel agrees that the country must fight to create an environment where a repeat of this attack becomes unthinkable. Given the demonstrated nature of the Hamas threat, military force has to be part of that equation.
Zack Beauchamp -senior correspondent at Vox
https://www.vox.com/2023/10/20/23919946 ... n-strategy

After reading his article Israel need to make some concessions to make Palestinians trust them such as remove illegal setters and offer a ceasefire to negotiate. However I think HAMAS already know that escalating warfare works in their favour, I don'k like the chances of peace without first taking out HAMAS.



TwilightPrincess
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16 Nov 2023, 12:44 am

It depends on what the “senior correspondent at Vox” meant by “military force.” If he meant an extended pause in the fighting to ensure civilian safety and aide or a ceasefire as outlined by the U.N., I’d be onboard. I am NOT onboard with the current massacre.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143632

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143432

Quote:
Speaking to the “particularly intense” strikes on hospitals and in the vicinity of hospitals in Gaza City, Mr. Türk [UN rights chief] stressed that international humanitarian law extends special protection to medical units and requires that they be protected and respected at all times.

“Any use by Palestinian armed groups of civilians and civilian objects to shield themselves from attack is in contravention of the laws of war. But such conduct by Palestinian armed groups does not absolve Israel of its obligation to ensure that civilians are spared – that the principles of distinction, precautions in attack and proportionality are respected,” he said.



BillyTree
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16 Nov 2023, 6:23 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
I wouldn’t entirely trust data from either side. Both have a pattern of lying.

According to humanitarian groups on the scene, it would seem as though a lot of people are dying.

Israel has choices. I don’t think they are making the correct ones.


I watched a teve interview by a member of Doctors Without Borders. He was an elderly man from Norway and had been working as a doctor at the al-Shifa hospital for the last couple of years. He was very critical about the way Israel vages war against Gaza. He had never seen any signs of a presence of Hamas at the hospital. And according to him it was obvious that Israel targeted hospitals to kill more people by preventing people injured in the other bombings to get treatment. He asked the UN to step in and start making demands that Israel follow international rules.


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Jono
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16 Nov 2023, 6:36 am

BillyTree wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
I wouldn’t entirely trust data from either side. Both have a pattern of lying.

According to humanitarian groups on the scene, it would seem as though a lot of people are dying.

Israel has choices. I don’t think they are making the correct ones.


I watched a teve interview by a member of Doctors Without Borders. He was an elderly man from Norway and had been working as a doctor at the al-Shifa hospital for the last couple of years. He was very critical about the way Israel vages war against Gaza. He had never seen any signs of a presence of Hamas at the hospital. And according to him it was obvious that Israel targeted hospitals to kill more people by preventing people injured in the other bombings to get treatment. He asked the UN to step in and start making demands that Israel follow international rules.


Yet, Amnesty International have accused Hamas of utilising abandoned rooms in Al-Shifa hospital to torture people and hold hostages during the 2014 war. So it's not actually new and they came from an independent human rights agency, not just the IDF.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/

https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MDE2116432015ENGLISH.pdf



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16 Nov 2023, 11:07 am

cyberdad wrote:
Israel have evacuated settlements from Sinai and Gaza before,

... but not huge numbers of settlements, some of which had been around for decades. There are just too many West Bank settlers, many of whom have been there for a very long time.

The West Bank settlers were a significant barrier to the two-state solution even twenty years ago. (See Israel: The Alternative by Tony Judt, New York Review of Books, October 23, 2003.) All the more so are they a barrier now.

That's why we need to think seriously about the idea of a single unified state and how to make it work.

Admittedly this won't be easy. It will require not only a lot of outside pressure, but also a lot of dialogue, a lot of listening to the concerns of people on all sides, and a lot of creative thinking.


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16 Nov 2023, 1:13 pm

Democratic lawmakers press Biden on Israeli violence in the West Bank

Quote:
Two Democratic lawmakers wrote to President Joe Biden on Thursday to ask him to keep pressing Israel to crack down on violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinians in the West Bank.

"As your administration tirelessly works to prevent the expansion of this conflict, we write to specifically highlight the threat that violence in the West Bank — especially vigilante violence by Israeli settlers — poses to those efforts, Israel’s near-term security, Palestinian human rights, and long-term regional peace," Sen. Cory Booker, D-N.J., and Rep. Dan Goldman, D-N.Y., wrote in a letter first obtained by NBC News.

Goldman and Booker, the only two lawmakers who were in Israel during the Oct. 7 Hamas attack, argue that violence by settlers undermines the Palestinian Authority, which they view as a crucial partner in attempting to unify Gaza and the West Bank as part of an eventual peace plan that establishes a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

We strongly believe that a two-state solution remains the only genuine option to achieve a just, secure, and prosperous future for both Israelis and Palestinians,” the lawmakers wrote. “However, settler violence against Palestinian civilians destroys the very seeds of trust and cooperation needed to make progress toward a two-state outcome and an enduring peace in the region."

The White House did not immediately respond to NBC News' request for comment on the letter.

Israeli violence against Palestinians in the West Bank is one of the issues straining the relationship between the U.S. and Israel, and Secretary of State Antony Blinken told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu earlier this month that the incidents are "unacceptable," according to the State Department. The lawmakers, both Biden allies with strong ties to Israel, appear to be bolstering the president's position at a delicate moment for his domestic politics and his relationship with Netanyahu.

The letter falls well short of the cease-fire that some Democratic members of Congress and many progressive activists want the U.S. to seek in the Middle East. But the request to pressure Israel to police its own people in the West Bank comes amid pro-Palestinian demonstrations aimed at swaying the Biden administration and Democratic lawmakers.

In addition to their broader call for pressuring Israel on violence in the West Bank, Booker and Goldman specifically ask Biden to ensure that it is not carried out with weapons provided by the U.S. to Israel.


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16 Nov 2023, 3:10 pm

I feel like there's a clear logical fallacy at work here with people who think the Israelis are going out of their way to harm civilians, which is that the Israelis could wipe Gaza off the map in an evening if they really wanted to; that they haven't shows that killing civilians isn't their objective, which also makes them the more moral party in this conflict.


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16 Nov 2023, 3:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I feel like there's a clear logical fallacy at work here with people who think the Israelis are going out of their way to harm civilians, which is that the Israelis could wipe Gaza off the map in an evening if they really wanted to; that they haven't shows that killing civilians isn't their objective, which also makes them the more moral party in this conflict.


:?

The numbers say otherwise.

Quote:
GAZA CITY, Palestine

The Palestinian death toll from an ongoing Israeli onslaught in the Gaza Strip has surged to 11,320 people, the government media office said on Tuesday.

“The victims include 4,650 children and 3,145 women, while 29,200 others are injured,” the office said in a statement.

According to the statement, 3,600 other people remain unaccounted for, including 1,755 children.

“A total of 198 medics, 22 civil defense personnel and 51 journalists were also killed in the assaults,” it added.

“The Israeli aggression has forced 25 hospitals and 52 health care centers out of service, while 55 ambulances were targeted by Israeli forces,” the statement said.

The media office said 40 patients died inside the Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City in the past five days amid an Israeli siege and fuel shortage.

“Eighty-two people were buried in a mass grave inside the medical complex because of the intransigence of the occupation, which is still completely besieging the hospital,” it added.

Israel has launched relentless air and ground attacks on the Gaza Strip since a cross-border attack by Hamas on Oct. 7.

Thousands of buildings, including hospitals, mosques and churches, have been damaged or destroyed in the Israeli offensive.

The Israeli death toll, meanwhile, stands 1,200, according to official figures.


https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/ga ... en/3053701

Take a look at the stats of who they've killed. The ratio of civilians & humanitarian workers to Hamas terrorists is pretty abysmal. VERY hard to argue that they're "doing their best not to kill civilians," when it either appears that they're not aiming At ALL or they're intentionally aiming at civilians, medics, journalists, ambulances, UN workers etc.

IMO, the biggest reason Israel doesn't just carpet bomb Gaza back into the Stone Age and kill everyone all at once is that then they wouldn't have even a single shred of plausible deniability.. whereas with this haphazard murder spree they can pretend for a while that they were shooting at terrorists or suspected terrorists vs. what seems their more likely policy of "Shoot anything that moves because f**k it they're all Hamas or Hamas supporters or eventually might grow up to be Hamas terrorists, so just kill 'em all."


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funeralxempire
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16 Nov 2023, 3:27 pm

Dox47 wrote:
I feel like there's a clear logical fallacy at work here with people who think the Israelis are going out of their way to harm civilians, which is that the Israelis could wipe Gaza off the map in an evening if they really wanted to; that they haven't shows that killing civilians isn't their objective, which also makes them the more moral party in this conflict.


I can see where you're coming from, but if Israel adopted a much more aggressive approach they'd likely face more than just condemnation. With that in mind, the most viable strategy is the salami or boiled frog approach. Take little slices, heat the water slowly (depending on which metaphor you prefer).

Personally, I don't believe their goal is to simply kill as many Palestinians as possible, but rather that they're perfectly fine with causing deaths as part of a broader strategy to dispossess the Palestinian people of their homeland.

Likud is descended from the terrorists who were directly responsible for mass murder of Palestinian civilians during the 40s. It's not that far-fetched to see their current policies as a continuation of those of Irgun, only by different means.


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16 Nov 2023, 3:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Likud is descended from the terrorists who were directly responsible for mass murder of Palestinian civilians during the 40s. It's not that far-fetched to see their current policies as a continuation of those of Irgun, only by different means.


You also need to look at why Israelis vote in Likud. Get tough on terrorism sounds familiar to me as it echoes western conservative right wing calls to build walls and stop illegal immigration.

The last step in deescalating this war is for the Israeli people to accept Likud's role in the rise of HAMAS and to vote them out of power and (if necessary) launch an inquiry into Likud's role (particularly Netanyahu) but that's down the track.



cyberdad
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16 Nov 2023, 4:02 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:


Fair enough, Although the IDF defence strategy is to dismantle HAMAS (not kill civilians) One must also accept impartial reports from doctors and UN workers against the IDF level of brutality in taking out HAMAS is killing civilians. From a strategic perspective HAMAS leadership have manipulated their own cadres to film the executions of innocent Israelis to deliberately inflame the IDF, The strategy worked and Israel finds itself a "pariah state" over its treatment of Gazans.

Some of those filming themselves have now been taken out by the IDF
https://www.news.com.au/technology/upda ... 2c439a3c44

I suspect the IDF still have spies and double agents in Gaza who know the ringleaders.



TwilightPrincess
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16 Nov 2023, 4:09 pm

The IDF’s “defense strategy” is killing a lot of innocent people whatever their goal may or may not be.



cyberdad
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16 Nov 2023, 9:10 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
The IDF’s “defense strategy” is killing a lot of innocent people whatever their goal may or may not be.

As Vox's Zach Beauchamp says, "they can't do nothing"