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Sweetleaf
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17 Nov 2011, 12:31 pm

If anyone wants to see some stuff that's going on:
http://www.ustream.tv/theother99

Don't know if anyone is curious but yes it would seem there's quite a bit of protesting action in New York...and i think its great, I'll have to see what's going on in my city and possibly participate.



Niall
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17 Nov 2011, 3:17 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
If anyone wants to see some stuff that's going on:
http://www.ustream.tv/theother99

Don't know if anyone is curious but yes it would seem there's quite a bit of protesting action in New York...and i think its great, I'll have to see what's going on in my city and possibly participate.


:D I would personally encourage you to do that. I've spent time in protest camps in Edinburgh and Dublin, and it's been mostly chilled out and good fun. There's a bad element everywhere, and the cops are being rough in some places, so you might want to be cautious, but I think it's important to show solidarity and join the dialogue.



Sweetleaf
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17 Nov 2011, 11:27 pm

Niall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
If anyone wants to see some stuff that's going on:
http://www.ustream.tv/theother99

Don't know if anyone is curious but yes it would seem there's quite a bit of protesting action in New York...and i think its great, I'll have to see what's going on in my city and possibly participate.


:D I would personally encourage you to do that. I've spent time in protest camps in Edinburgh and Dublin, and it's been mostly chilled out and good fun. There's a bad element everywhere, and the cops are being rough in some places, so you might want to be cautious, but I think it's important to show solidarity and join the dialogue.


I just got back from the Denver, Colorado protests because I live near there so its easier than trying to get to new york. .........and it was pretty cool, we had a march and stuff, don't think the cops were very happy about it but they did not harras any of us that I saw. But yes I am cautious, but at the same time I am willing to take risks because there is the risk the cops will crack down and start mass arresting people here to but that's not going to stop me from participating.



jackbus01
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18 Nov 2011, 3:10 am

The system will fall? ...and then what happens next.



Niall
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18 Nov 2011, 3:41 am

jackbus01 wrote:
The system will fall? ...and then what happens next.


We're working on it.

In any case, it appears to be Sweetleaf's position (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that the system is going to collapse one way or another anyway, and there are in fact analyses out there (read, for example Jared Diamond's Collapse (Viking, 2005) that suggest that she might be right.

My position is that an orderly transition now makes more sense in the long run than a disorderly one at some point in the probably not-too-distant future.

It seems to be the position of the 1% and their sheep that we can keep going the way we have been doing indefinitely, on the basis of the usual faulty assumptions about infinite resources and so on.

On the basis of those faulty assumtions, I disagree.

The problem many of us are currently trying to address is your question.



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18 Nov 2011, 7:31 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Niall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
If anyone wants to see some stuff that's going on:
http://www.ustream.tv/theother99

Don't know if anyone is curious but yes it would seem there's quite a bit of protesting action in New York...and i think its great, I'll have to see what's going on in my city and possibly participate.


:D I would personally encourage you to do that. I've spent time in protest camps in Edinburgh and Dublin, and it's been mostly chilled out and good fun. There's a bad element everywhere, and the cops are being rough in some places, so you might want to be cautious, but I think it's important to show solidarity and join the dialogue.


I just got back from the Denver, Colorado protests because I live near there so its easier than trying to get to new york. .........and it was pretty cool, we had a march and stuff, don't think the cops were very happy about it but they did not harras any of us that I saw. But yes I am cautious, but at the same time I am willing to take risks because there is the risk the cops will crack down and start mass arresting people here to but that's not going to stop me from participating.


Cops are never happy with anything that doesn't fit their regimented ideas about reality. It's important to show direct support as well as think about alternatives, and these places can be good ones to meet other people who are also thinking about alternatives.



DC
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18 Nov 2011, 7:48 am

Niall wrote:
jackbus01 wrote:
The system will fall? ...and then what happens next.


We're working on it.

In any case, it appears to be Sweetleaf's position (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that the system is going to collapse one way or another anyway, and there are in fact analyses out there (read, for example Jared Diamond's Collapse (Viking, 2005) that suggest that she might be right.

My position is that an orderly transition now makes more sense in the long run than a disorderly one at some point in the probably not-too-distant future.

It seems to be the position of the 1% and their sheep that we can keep going the way we have been doing indefinitely, on the basis of the usual faulty assumptions about infinite resources and so on.

On the basis of those faulty assumtions, I disagree.

The problem many of us are currently trying to address is your question.


You don't even have to look at a doom mongering Jared diamond to figure it out.

Both Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill, the fathers of economic liberalism were clear that the idea of an ever expanding free market system was absurd and eventually it would return to a steady state system.

Odd that those who idolise the free market so much don't ever seem to read the people that conceived it... :roll:



Niall
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18 Nov 2011, 9:18 am

Sweetleaf and others.

You might like to have a read round on this site:

http://www.gtinitiative.org/

This is a group of scientists and activists looking at "a Great Transition to a future of enriched lives, human solidarity, and environmental sustainability."

I'm off back to my reading!

Niall



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18 Nov 2011, 11:13 am

Niall wrote:
Sweetleaf and others.

You might like to have a read round on this site:

http://www.gtinitiative.org/

This is a group of scientists and activists looking at "a Great Transition to a future of enriched lives, human solidarity, and environmental sustainability."

I'm off back to my reading!

Niall


cool, I'll have to check that out more.



Sweetleaf
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18 Nov 2011, 11:18 am

Niall wrote:
jackbus01 wrote:
The system will fall? ...and then what happens next.


We're working on it.

In any case, it appears to be Sweetleaf's position (correct me if I'm wrong, please) that the system is going to collapse one way or another anyway, and there are in fact analyses out there (read, for example Jared Diamond's Collapse (Viking, 2005) that suggest that she might be right.

My position is that an orderly transition now makes more sense in the long run than a disorderly one at some point in the probably not-too-distant future.

It seems to be the position of the 1% and their sheep that we can keep going the way we have been doing indefinitely, on the basis of the usual faulty assumptions about infinite resources and so on.

On the basis of those faulty assumtions, I disagree.

The problem many of us are currently trying to address is your question.


Yeah that would be pretty close to my point......also the important thing is saying something about it rather then just letting it go on without even acknowledging it. The point is there is something terribly wrong with the system so something needs to be done......that's why people are protesting......I do not have a perfect solution, but even the government does not seem to have a solution at least people are getting fed up with it.



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18 Nov 2011, 12:05 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yeah that would be pretty close to my point......also the important thing is saying something about it rather then just letting it go on without even acknowledging it. The point is there is something terribly wrong with the system so something needs to be done......that's why people are protesting......I do not have a perfect solution, but even the government does not seem to have a solution at least people are getting fed up with it.


I don't think we can realistically expect governments to be coming up with a solution. I'm not even sure if most governments even recognise that there is a problem beyond a minor glitch that can be fixed by patching the existing system. To them, this is a matter that can be solved by working out how to fix the temporary problems with the Euro and the US Dollar. As GTI rightly point out, governments are too concerned with nationalistic sentiment to be particulary concerned with global problems. A prime example of this is the refusal of any major government to tackle climate change on a global basis by treaty. The only governments willing to take a lead on this are those that see an imminent threat to their wellbeing or survival, such as the Alliance of Small Island States.

A notion that I have not run across on GTI is the tendency for many governments to be in the pockets of the multinational corporations. Conventional discourse on this talks about oligarchs (Greek - oligarchy: rule by the few), although kleptocracy (rule by theives!) might be more accurate. The classic example is modern Russia, or course, but successive US administrations have had very close ties to big business, British governments have been no better (even the Scottish government was bought off by Donald Trump!), and the Greek and Italian governments have recently found economists with close links to the IMF installed at their heads, in one case simply replacing a thoroughly corrupt media tycoon. This list could go on.

This means that the corporations have the state apparatus of legislation and enforcement under their control, more or less directly.

I suggest that expecting governments to take action on this is excessively optimistic.

Any solution will have to come from civil society, and may require an element of coercion, because these people will not abandon power willingly. I hope it does not come to that, as it will make the construction of a post-capitalist global society that much harder.



Sweetleaf
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18 Nov 2011, 12:21 pm

Niall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Yeah that would be pretty close to my point......also the important thing is saying something about it rather then just letting it go on without even acknowledging it. The point is there is something terribly wrong with the system so something needs to be done......that's why people are protesting......I do not have a perfect solution, but even the government does not seem to have a solution at least people are getting fed up with it.


I don't think we can realistically expect governments to be coming up with a solution. I'm not even sure if most governments even recognise that there is a problem beyond a minor glitch that can be fixed by patching the existing system. To them, this is a matter that can be solved by working out how to fix the temporary problems with the Euro and the US Dollar. As GTI rightly point out, governments are too concerned with nationalistic sentiment to be particulary concerned with global problems. A prime example of this is the refusal of any major government to tackle climate change on a global basis by treaty. The only governments willing to take a lead on this are those that see an imminent threat to their wellbeing or survival, such as the Alliance of Small Island States.

A notion that I have not run across on GTI is the tendency for many governments to be in the pockets of the multinational corporations. Conventional discourse on this talks about oligarchs (Greek - oligarchy: rule by the few), although kleptocracy (rule by theives!) might be more accurate. The classic example is modern Russia, or course, but successive US administrations have had very close ties to big business, British governments have been no better (even the Scottish government was bought off by Donald Trump!), and the Greek and Italian governments have recently found economists with close links to the IMF installed at their heads, in one case simply replacing a thoroughly corrupt media tycoon. This list could go on.

This means that the corporations have the state apparatus of legislation and enforcement under their control, more or less directly.

I suggest that expecting governments to take action on this is excessively optimistic.

Any solution will have to come from civil society, and may require an element of coercion, because these people will not abandon power willingly. I hope it does not come to that, as it will make the construction of a post-capitalist global society that much harder.


Yeah I agree, which is why I'm glad at least a lot of citizens of various countries at least know there is a problem.....and have something to say about it. But yeah it is rather optimistic to expect the government to take any action to make things better, so guess who's job it is now.



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18 Nov 2011, 12:36 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yeah I agree, which is why I'm glad at least a lot of citizens of various countries at least know there is a problem.....and have something to say about it. But yeah it is rather optimistic to expect the government to take any action to make things better, so guess who's job it is now.


Oh, we know, and we're on the case.

What I'm not following is why you talk about "the government", as if there is only one government. Different governments are responding slightly differently to the current economic crisis, although it's all variants on the notion of patching the failed system.

It's a global problem, not just an American one.



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18 Nov 2011, 12:45 pm

Niall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Yeah I agree, which is why I'm glad at least a lot of citizens of various countries at least know there is a problem.....and have something to say about it. But yeah it is rather optimistic to expect the government to take any action to make things better, so guess who's job it is now.


Oh, we know, and we're on the case.

What I'm not following is why you talk about "the government", as if there is only one government. Different governments are responding slightly differently to the current economic crisis, although it's all variants on the notion of patching the failed system.

It's a global problem, not just an American one.


Well I live in the U.S and we have different states and each state has its state government, some states are better than others in regards to that but then we have the Federal Government that likes to try and interfere with everything. Like in my state Medical Marijuana was legalized and now the Federal Government is cracking down on it because regardless of what states want The feds don't like it. So that is the prespective I'm speaking from.

As for the world I think a lot of it has to do with the huge corporations....it would just so happen the people running those can easily buy the politicians in the U.S and in other countries. So the way I see it the Federal government of the U.S is connected to the corrupt corporations and people who run them as well as any politicians from other countries who are bought out by the corporations is also connected to the problem........I am kind of simplifying so if that's confusing I'll try and explain it better. But yeah I know it is a global problem.....I just have a bit more understanding of what is specifically going on here since I can see it myself.



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18 Nov 2011, 1:45 pm

DC wrote:
You don't even have to look at a doom mongering Jared diamond to figure it out.

Both Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill, the fathers of economic liberalism were clear that the idea of an ever expanding free market system was absurd and eventually it would return to a steady state system.

Odd that those who idolise the free market so much don't ever seem to read the people that conceived it... :roll:

I think the only way the free market system can keep generating ever increasing wealth is through technological breakthroughs. Technological breakthroughs lead to technological infrastructures which are usually grown through cooperative effort between private markets and governments. Technological infrastructure forms the basis for new demand which grows wealth.

I find it a bit of an absurdity that we now have a world where peoples' means to existence (i.e. employment so they can eat and have a roof over their head) is tied to the need for an ever expanding market and ever expanding consumption. Consumption can't keep growing if only a small percentage of the population is actually growing more wealthy. The past decade or so has relied increasingly on consumer debt to keep the economy growing while wages have stopped growing. That didn't last which is why we are now in the funk that we're in. It just doesn't seem like a sustainable mode to me.

At this point there really are only two options. Governments could start pouring massive investment into setting up space colonies in orbit or on the moon and get the private market heavily involved. That way technological infrastructures can keep expanding and growing wealth. The other option is a massive overhaul of capitalism into a more sustainable model. The latter of course requires some form of world government.



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18 Nov 2011, 3:18 pm

marshall wrote:
DC wrote:
You don't even have to look at a doom mongering Jared diamond to figure it out.

Both Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill, the fathers of economic liberalism were clear that the idea of an ever expanding free market system was absurd and eventually it would return to a steady state system.

Odd that those who idolise the free market so much don't ever seem to read the people that conceived it... :roll:

I think the only way the free market system can keep generating ever increasing wealth is through technological breakthroughs. Technological breakthroughs lead to technological infrastructures which are usually grown through cooperative effort between private markets and governments. Technological infrastructure forms the basis for new demand which grows wealth.

I find it a bit of an absurdity that we now have a world where peoples' means to existence (i.e. employment so they can eat and have a roof over their head) is tied to the need for an ever expanding market and ever expanding consumption. Consumption can't keep growing if only a small percentage of the population is actually growing more wealthy. The past decade or so has relied increasingly on consumer debt to keep the economy growing while wages have stopped growing. That didn't last which is why we are now in the funk that we're in. It just doesn't seem like a sustainable mode to me.

At this point there really are only two options. Governments could start pouring massive investment into setting up space colonies in orbit or on the moon and get the private market heavily involved. That way technological infrastructures can keep expanding and growing wealth. The other option is a massive overhaul of capitalism into a more sustainable model. The latter of course requires some form of world government.


I suspect that the only solutions now to our growing environmental, social and economic problems will involve a world government. Our populations are too large for a simple agrarian society. Your Plateau 2 solution - moving part of our civilisation into orbit - would also require such vast sums of money that it would be done through private enterprise (and we've seen where that's got us) or complex international co-operation.

Mining the moon and, ultimately, the asteroids, requires a technological base that we lack (but could develop if we stopped wasting so much money on "defence" budgets). It also present a problem of how you go about feeding everyone, and also the pollution problem from discarded waste here on Earth. I'm behind you if you can solve the problems, but I've got a lot of attached conditions.