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Fnord
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15 Dec 2011, 4:02 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
dogslife wrote:
Also, as a vocal, active member of the Occupy movement, how am I personally being a self-righteous hypocrite?
How much of your money goes to those who have none? Have you liquidated all of your holdings and given all of the cash to the poor? Do you hold any back for yourself, or do you just give an "equal share"?
I say that anyone who does not share all of their wealth with those who have none, and then claims that the wealthy should do so instead is a hypocrite.
Well first off no one is saying the wealthy should give up all of their wealth and possessions, now are they? That is an exageration on your part.

Well, you're wrong. I've spoken face-to-face with real "Occupy Movement" members, and that is exactly what they've told me - they want the wealthy to share their wealth equally with everybody.

Of course, other members tell me something else entirely, but that just shows how disorganized and ineffective the entire movement really is.



Sweetleaf
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15 Dec 2011, 4:11 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
... back to Square One: Just what is this "Occupy Movement" all about, anyway? Shaming the wealthy into giving the Occupiers a wad of money? Converting the economy into a Communist state? Just what are they trying to prove?
Its about people being fed up with the system

News Flash: People have been fed up with "The System" ever since "The System" came into being.

I am aware there have always been people not happy with whatever system they live under....but the protests are about some specific issues with the system. such as the wealthy getting wealthier and the poor, lower middle class and middle class getting poorer. There are things that could be changed to decrease that issue.

Sweetleaf wrote:
... one of the legal things people can do is protest about things they have an issue with. Basically in the U.S specifically the main issue is with the Corporatocracy system we have and the problems it causes.

Protests? Just protests? Again, what are they trying to prove? Only that they are unhappy that "The System" is not being run to their direct benefit?

I don't think its about trying to prove anything.......I think its about making a stand against the corruption and bringing attention to the issues people are fed up about. I am not happy with the system because its set up in such a way that makes it nearly impossible for people such as myself to hope to have a decent quality of life sure.....so yeah I don't like how its effecting me, the people I care about or people in general.

Sweetleaf wrote:
yes some of them might be of the opinion communism would be better than the current system, in which case I agree......but I would not say that is the goal of the Occupy protests.

Then WHAT IS THE GOAL?! !

same as the last response

By the way, communism represses activism unless it serves The System - those who protest against The System are often "re-educated", sent to remote labor camps, or simply made to "disappear".


That's not actual communism.....communism would involve a classless society so there would be no opressive government to re-educate people, send them to remote labor camps and make them disappear. But either way what do you think we have going on right now in this country? There are lots of ways those in charge of our system can make things very hard on people who dont want to go along with the system.


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Sweetleaf
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15 Dec 2011, 4:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
dogslife wrote:
Also, as a vocal, active member of the Occupy movement, how am I personally being a self-righteous hypocrite?
How much of your money goes to those who have none? Have you liquidated all of your holdings and given all of the cash to the poor? Do you hold any back for yourself, or do you just give an "equal share"?
I say that anyone who does not share all of their wealth with those who have none, and then claims that the wealthy should do so instead is a hypocrite.
Well first off no one is saying the wealthy should give up all of their wealth and possessions, now are they? That is an exageration on your part.

Well, you're wrong. I've spoken face-to-face with real "Occupy Movement" members, and that is exactly what they've told me - they want the wealthy to share their wealth equally with everybody.

Of course, other members tell me something else entirely, but that just shows how disorganized and ineffective the entire movement really is.


How does 'we want the wealthy to share their wealth equally with everybody' indicate 'the wealthy should give everything they own to the poor so they have nothing left at all.'

all you've done is prove no one actually said the wealthy should give up all their wealth.


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cubedemon6073
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15 Dec 2011, 5:47 pm

Fnord, you state you were homeless and you have aspergers. What measures and steps did you take to get yourself out of your situation? Your story could be useful for those on here who are aspegers and unemployed? I heard that 15% of autistics are employed in some way and only about 7% have full time jobs. I do not know if this is true or where the source is at? If it is true then you are a part of the 15%.

If we had stories from the 15% who were successful maybe we could see a pattern.



Fnord
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15 Dec 2011, 5:51 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Fnord, you state you were homeless and you have aspergers. What measures and steps did you take to get yourself out of your situation? Your story could be useful for those on here who are aspegers and unemployed? I heard that 15% of autistics are employed in some way and only about 7% have full time jobs. I do not know if this is true or where the source is at? If it is true then you are a part of the 15%. If we had stories from the 15% who were successful maybe we could see a pattern.

Want the story?

Buy the rights - limited term only



cubedemon6073
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15 Dec 2011, 5:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
dogslife wrote:
Also, as a vocal, active member of the Occupy movement, how am I personally being a self-righteous hypocrite?
How much of your money goes to those who have none? Have you liquidated all of your holdings and given all of the cash to the poor? Do you hold any back for yourself, or do you just give an "equal share"?
I say that anyone who does not share all of their wealth with those who have none, and then claims that the wealthy should do so instead is a hypocrite.
Well first off no one is saying the wealthy should give up all of their wealth and possessions, now are they? That is an exageration on your part.

Well, you're wrong. I've spoken face-to-face with real "Occupy Movement" members, and that is exactly what they've told me - they want the wealthy to share their wealth equally with everybody.

Of course, other members tell me something else entirely, but that just shows how disorganized and ineffective the entire movement really is.


What should they do then? What measures should they take to improve their lives? If about 9%-11% can't seem to get or keep jobs then 89%-91% figured it out, got jobs and kept jobs. This seems to include autistics as well. I am part 9%-11% If it is not disability then it must be something else. What is the common variable(s) that seems to be screwing us all up and if it is identifiable can this variable(s) be negated? If it can be then I wonder how it can be negated?



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15 Dec 2011, 5:55 pm

Fnord wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Fnord, you state you were homeless and you have aspergers. What measures and steps did you take to get yourself out of your situation? Your story could be useful for those on here who are aspegers and unemployed? I heard that 15% of autistics are employed in some way and only about 7% have full time jobs. I do not know if this is true or where the source is at? If it is true then you are a part of the 15%. If we had stories from the 15% who were successful maybe we could see a pattern.

Want the story?

Buy the rights - limited term only


What is your asking price? When you mean by limited term do you mean that you will leave parts out or do you mean there is a limited time I can buy it? Or neither?



Fnord
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15 Dec 2011, 6:04 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
That's not actual communism.....communism would involve a classless society so there would be no opressive government to re-educate people, send them to remote labor camps and make them disappear.

Sweetleaf, I'm trying hard not to be hard on you, but obviously you know little about communism. I've read "Das Kapital, Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie" (trans: "Capital: Critique of Political Economy") by Karl Marx - the definitive work on the subject by the definitive author on the subject - and have found that Herr Marx based many of his precepts on Darwinic evolutionary theory (as understood at the time). Marx had read Darwin's "Origin of Species" and claimed that it supported his theory of class struggle. He even sent Darwin a personally inscribed copy of "Das Kapital" in 1873 and had a dedication in the German version: "In deep appreciation - for Charles Darwin".

Sweetleaf wrote:
But either way what do you think we have going on right now in this country? There are lots of ways those in charge of our system can make things very hard on people who dont want to go along with the system.

The System is becoming progressively more totalitarian - not through dictatorial fiat, but through plutocratic influence.

But mentioning this again merely a metaphorical pugilistic attack upon an equine corpse.

No one has yet offered a viable solution, much less put one into action.

Never confuse motion with direction.



Last edited by Fnord on 15 Dec 2011, 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cubedemon6073
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15 Dec 2011, 6:24 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That's not actual communism.....communism would involve a classless society so there would be no opressive government to re-educate people, send them to remote labor camps and make them disappear.

Sweetleaf, I'm trying hard not to be hard on you, but obviously you know little about communism. I've read "Das Kapital, Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie" (trans: "Capital: Critique of Political Economy") by Karl Marx - the definitive work on the subject byt the definitive author on the subject - and have found that Herr Marx based many of his precepts on Darwinic evolutionary theory (as understood at the time). Marx had read Darwin's "Origin of Species" and claimed that it supported his theory of class struggle. He even sent Darwin a personally inscribed copy of "Das Kapital" in 1873 and had a dedication in the German version: "In deep appreciation - for Charles Darwin".

Sweetleaf wrote:
But either way what do you think we have going on right now in this country? There are lots of ways those in charge of our system can make things very hard on people who dont want to go along with the system.

The System is becoming progressively more totalitarian - not through dictatorial fiat, but through plutocratic influence.

But mentioning this again merely a metaphorical pugilistic attack upon an equine corpse.

No one has yet offered a viable solution, much less put one into action.

Never confuse motion with direction.


What is your solution? Personally, I believe the problem is with people. It is human nature itself. I do not believe it matters what system we have. People would have to want and choose to do right. People would have to choose to quit being deceptive in their dealings. I am a christain and I believe it is human nature and that is the problem. Human nature consists of sin and in my opinion this is what we are dealing with. One of the sins is greed. I believe for those who truly want to live upright lives they may have to flee the system altogether and form their own mini-society. They may have to give up some creature comforts as well.



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15 Dec 2011, 6:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
The System is becoming progressively more totalitarian - not through dictatorial fiat, but through plutocratic influence.

And doesn't totalitarianism thrive in an environment of violent accusations? Say, accusing people of being two completely different things?

Direction and motion. Stop it please, you're killing me
If you really wanted to deal with plutocracy the last thing you should do is bleat insults towards Occupy



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15 Dec 2011, 6:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That's not actual communism.....communism would involve a classless society so there would be no opressive government to re-educate people, send them to remote labor camps and make them disappear.

Sweetleaf, I'm trying hard not to be hard on you, but obviously you know little about communism. I've read "Das Kapital, Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie" (trans: "Capital: Critique of Political Economy") by Karl Marx - the definitive work on the subject by the definitive author on the subject - and have found that Herr Marx based many of his precepts on Darwinic evolutionary theory (as understood at the time). Marx had read Darwin's "Origin of Species" and claimed that it supported his theory of class struggle. He even sent Darwin a personally inscribed copy of "Das Kapital" in 1873 and had a dedication in the German version: "In deep appreciation - for Charles Darwin".

Well I don't know everything about communsim, but everything I have looked up seems to indicate the idea is a classless society...not a society controlled by a oppresive government. And I agree with that idea.

Sweetleaf wrote:
But either way what do you think we have going on right now in this country? There are lots of ways those in charge of our system can make things very hard on people who dont want to go along with the system.

The System is becoming progressively more totalitarian - not through dictatorial fiat, but through plutocratic influence.

But mentioning this again merely a metaphorical pugilistic attack upon an equine corpse.

No one has yet offered a viable solution, much less put one into action.

Never confuse motion with direction.



Well yes if someone figured out a way to fix it and did so that would be great, but no one has gotten that far yet. At least the protestors are doing something rather then just ignoring all the issues and going on with their lives without a care in the world.


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Fnord
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15 Dec 2011, 7:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That's not actual communism.....communism would involve a classless society so there would be no opressive government to re-educate people, send them to remote labor camps and make them disappear.
Sweetleaf, I'm trying hard not to be hard on you, but obviously you know little about communism. I've read "Das Kapital, Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie" (trans: "Capital: Critique of Political Economy") by Karl Marx - the definitive work on the subject by the definitive author on the subject - and have found that Herr Marx based many of his precepts on Darwinic evolutionary theory (as understood at the time). Marx had read Darwin's "Origin of Species" and claimed that it supported his theory of class struggle. He even sent Darwin a personally inscribed copy of "Das Kapital" in 1873 and had a dedication in the German version: "In deep appreciation - for Charles Darwin". Well I don't know everything about communsim, but everything I have looked up seems to indicate the idea is a classless society...not a society controlled by a oppresive government. And I agree with that idea.
Sweetleaf wrote:
But either way what do you think we have going on right now in this country? There are lots of ways those in charge of our system can make things very hard on people who dont want to go along with the system.
The System is becoming progressively more totalitarian - not through dictatorial fiat, but through plutocratic influence. But mentioning this again merely a metaphorical pugilistic attack upon an equine corpse. No one has yet offered a viable solution, much less put one into action. Never confuse motion with direction.
Well yes if someone figured out a way to fix it and did so that would be great, but no one has gotten that far yet. At least the protestors are doing something rather then just ignoring all the issues and going on with their lives without a care in the world.

The protestors are doing something, alright; they're making noise, preventing members of the working class from doing their jobs, setting up tent cities so as to deny those same working-class people from enjoying those public spaces, blocking traffic, getting arrested, raping and robbing each other ... yeah, they're doing a lot.

The trouble is, they're doing nothing that has any lasting or real effect on the so-called "One-Percenters".

By the way ... the only true classless society is an anarchic one - no leaders, no followers, no wealth, and every individual is a sovereign as their personal strength allows.

In communism, all people may be equal, but some people are more equal than others.



Last edited by Fnord on 15 Dec 2011, 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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15 Dec 2011, 7:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That's not actual communism.....communism would involve a classless society so there would be no opressive government to re-educate people, send them to remote labor camps and make them disappear.
Sweetleaf, I'm trying hard not to be hard on you, but obviously you know little about communism. I've read "Das Kapital, Kritik der Politischen Ökonomie" (trans: "Capital: Critique of Political Economy") by Karl Marx - the definitive work on the subject by the definitive author on the subject - and have found that Herr Marx based many of his precepts on Darwinic evolutionary theory (as understood at the time). Marx had read Darwin's "Origin of Species" and claimed that it supported his theory of class struggle. He even sent Darwin a personally inscribed copy of "Das Kapital" in 1873 and had a dedication in the German version: "In deep appreciation - for Charles Darwin". Well I don't know everything about communsim, but everything I have looked up seems to indicate the idea is a classless society...not a society controlled by a oppresive government. And I agree with that idea.
Sweetleaf wrote:
But either way what do you think we have going on right now in this country? There are lots of ways those in charge of our system can make things very hard on people who dont want to go along with the system.
The System is becoming progressively more totalitarian - not through dictatorial fiat, but through plutocratic influence. But mentioning this again merely a metaphorical pugilistic attack upon an equine corpse. No one has yet offered a viable solution, much less put one into action. Never confuse motion with direction.
Well yes if someone figured out a way to fix it and did so that would be great, but no one has gotten that far yet. At least the protestors are doing something rather then just ignoring all the issues and going on with their lives without a care in the world.

The protestors are doing something, alright; they're making noise, preventing members of the working class from doing their jobs, setting up tent cities so as to deny those same working-class people from enjoying those public spaces, blocking traffic, getting arrested, raping and robbing each other ... yeah, they're doing a lot.

The trouble is, they're doing nothing that has any lasting or real effect on the so-called "One-Percenters".


a lot of the protesters are working class americans......but besides that they have every right to protest, and the more it interferes with things the better because it brings more attention to the movement which is a good thing. Also anywhere where there is a massive group of people there are bound to be a few a**holes who take advantage of the situation and do things like rape and steal, I doubt it was the protesters commiting those crimes.


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Fnord
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15 Dec 2011, 7:44 pm

So you think that disrupting the lives of ordinary, working-class citizens is worth it, as long as doing so attracts attention?

I never said they did not have the right to protest ... I'm critical only because they're not accomplishing anything other than providing sound bites and footage for the Media.



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15 Dec 2011, 7:48 pm

People like Fnord think the movement is a threat to them. Therefore engaging in rational debate is pointless. All they do attack and troll.



Sweetleaf
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15 Dec 2011, 7:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
So you think that disrupting the lives of ordinary, working-class citizens is worth it, as long as doing so attracts attention?

I never said they did not have the right to protest ... I'm critical only because they're not accomplishing anything other than providing sound bites and footage for the Media.


Well ideally it attracts attention and more people realise there are some major problems that need to be dealt with, that is usually what a protest is for. What do you expect they should be accomplishing?


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