Shooting at LGBT nightclub in Florida, 20 injured

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Obama, Clinton, et al:

Guns did this! We must ban guns!

Trump and supporters:

Muslims did this! We must ban Muslims!

A plague on both your houses.

Actually, a white, Christian terrorist was stopped today. He was heavily armed with guns and explosives and on his way to disrupt a Pride parade in Los Angeles.

It *is* anti-gay rhetoric that is to blame, and it's being spewed by conservative extremist religious leaders.

They've been doing so for years now, ratcheting up their vitriol, imploring their followers to do something about it. For the most part they keep their followers just below a boil, just riled up enough to feel better about themselves and keep that donation bucket full.

The only real difference that I can see between conservative Islamic leaders and conservative Christian leaders is that when one of their followers finally snaps and does something terrible, the Islamic leaders claim responsibility because they want/need the perceived increase in power. When one of the followers of the conservative Christian leaders finally snaps and does something terrible, the Christian leaders deny all culpability because they don't want to lose any perceived power.

Sanders and supporters:

Shooting? What shooting?

Honestly, I think you can divide Islamic belief as follows...

1. non-orthodox Muslims (includes liberal Muslims and other smaller sects)
2. orthodox Muslims (identify as Sunni and Shia)
3. "soft" islamists
4. "hard" islamists

Non-orthodox Muslims include many liberal Muslims who don't believe the Koran is infallible and don't believe all Muslims must follow religious rules/laws. They are basically deists who believe in monotheism, pray, and call God "Allah". They are non-sectarian and don't identify as Sunni or Shia. Orthodox Muslims believe following religious rules/laws is obligatory for Muslims, but do not necessarily believe these laws should be enforced by government (sharia). "soft" Islamists believe that in an "ideal" world everyone will eventually be Muslim and people will choose to be governed by sharia law. "hard" Islamists believe sharia should be spread through force (by jihad).

I'd say group 4 is definitely a threat to pluralistic secular society (though not all will decide to become terrorists - in fact many believe killing of non-combatants is unislamic). Group 3 is not a direct threat but still problematic. All Salafi / Wahhabi Muslims belong to group 3 or 4. Groups 1 and 2 are of no threat to secular democracy unless they become 3 or 4. The majority of Muslims in the world are of type 2 or 3, but there is a large population of type 1 in more secular Muslim countries (like Turkey) and in the west. I'd say the majority of Muslims in the west are type 2.

Last edited by marshall on 12 Jun 2016, 9:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.

According to friends/family the "white christian terrorist" was Bisexual.

New world record. Go Merica. USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA, USA.

Every summer? Try almost every other day.



We’re 164 days into 2016. We’ve had 133 mass shootings.

But Christian terrorists are just lone wolves. Islamic terrorists represent all Muslims. Conservative logic 101.

Where are all of these dangerous Christian conservatives attacks?

I can recall perhaps about 2 or so, but they absolutely pale in comparison to the amount of Islamic extremist ones. I can also recall a few "social liberal" and "atheist" ones, so to think the Christian ones are just as bad then you have to admit social liberal and atheist ones are too.

You might need some perspective here.

Yes they would like crazy, but that does not change my point of view.

With Cruz and Trump taking this opportunity to bash Muslims for attacking gays - and even seemingly to defend gays - I have to wonder when extremists on the right will start saying that those evil, evil gays in Florida had it coming.

Pretty sure Trump has zero problems with gays and trans of various types. Cruz probably does from a sin perspective.

I've perused Western bigoted sites, and they tend to be in favor of the gays here (national pride seems to win it), with about another 1/3rd happy that a Muslim killed gays (so they think it was a good outcome overall).

I've also perused various Arabic forums and they're either happy that gays were killed or they dislike the negative attention.

Ex wife mentioned bi-polar and overall mentally disturbed vicious person.
Orlando massacre: Omar Mateen's ex-wife says he beat her and held her hostage

Nah, the partisans would still find a way to blame each other.

Dan Patrick, our Lt. Gov., posted the "reap what you sow" tweet, supposedly before this happened. It has since been deleted.

Bernie has spoken. Turns out that automatic weapons did this! We must ban automatic weapons!

Which are, of course, effectively banned already. What a clever, well-informed fellow.