Trump orders FBI to target blacks and environmentalists

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LoveNotHate
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20 Aug 2019, 9:43 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Americans - I think especially conservatives - like to say we are a Christian nation. If that's true, then we can't say it's each individuals responsibility to get along, or just go die if they can't. That's hardly the real Christian message, though many conservatives have attached themselves to very errant evangelical theologies such as the prosperity gospel which says God rewards the righteous with material wealth and curses the unrighteous with poverty. Trump's bought into that, hook, line, and sinker. It justifies not helping those in need, while magnifying the rich. Real Christianity means helping those down and out, not jugging them, or putting them through a litmus test for if they're really deserving of help. And it goes beyond individual or church charity, and includes paying taxes for the well being of our fellow brothers and sisters in need if we're the Christian country we're supposed to be.

Conservatives believe they're helping people when they get them off of assistance programs and onto self-reliance.

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EzraS
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20 Aug 2019, 9:50 pm

beneficii wrote:

EzraS wrote:

beneficii wrote:

EzraS wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

It seems quite simple to me. Those who work should not have to support those who are unwilling to. Big difference between unwilling and literally unable.

This is straight from the right wing/conservative bible to justify reducing government expenditure on welfare. Classic stuff.

You cherry pick a man on a oxygen machine getting work as a lawyer - if he can do it doesn't that mean the other unemployed are just lazy and good for nothing? pretty stock standard....I've heard it before

It's a fact that the vast majority of people who are not working are the result of redundancy or long term unemployed who are very willing to find work but who get knocked back when applying for jobs.

Our Aussie conservatives (your republican equivalents) are usually recipients of trust funds or other financial benefits which put them through school and have nice cushy jobs waiting for them. These "privileged" folk who are the ones running the country are fond of criticising the unemployed and apply Darwinian principles of the survival of the fittest if a person can't find work.

They argue why can't an unemployed professional just swallow their pride and go and sweep streets or clean toilets? the fact is many do but many can't even get that work! the job market is super competitive. Welcome to the real world.

As somebody who has been unemployed for long periods I've had to do pretty sh***y jobs to make ends meet. I have little respect for millionaire trust fund babies who meteorically rise to positions of power and declare that the unemployed are lazy because they don't want to look for work - so ergo - lets cut welfare

This is like Marie Antoinette''s famous comment about the poor in Paris not having enough to eat. She famously declared "let them eat cake"....we know what the French people did to her....

It comes from my own head, not any script. I look at it from the point of view as someone who is severely disabled, significant special needs - It is noteworthy that you left that out of the equation.

My stipulation was someone who could work but was unwilling to work. None of your examples cover that. It seems any time this specific type of leaching, sponging, mooching is addressed - the counter argument is a bunch of false equivalencies and non sequitur examples.

What Cyberdad is saying is that the outrage over moochers is way overblown, and that most of the people you think are moochers have other things going on.

Basically, he doesn't think your concerns are all that important, or relevant. And he thinks, also, that you're a bit intrusive and judgmental about how other people live their lives.

As someone who really needs disability money I object to those who receive it for flimsy reasons motivated out of laziness. They are stealing from us who are truly disabled. I am obviously talking about those who are taking advantage of the system and in essence taking advantage of me. If I do manage to get a career going, and I plan to give that my best shot, they will still be taking advantage of me. Yes I have a right to object to that.

I thought we were talking about taxation in general?

Also, what do you mean by "truly disabled"? Is meeting the SSA's definition not enough to you? Are you talking about people who fake their disability? What?

I was having a conversation with Persephone29. Cyberdad snipped most of that to have an out of context go at me and then you chimed in. Perhaps that is why you are confused. So maybe you should go back and take it from my conversation with Persephone29 rather than proceeding from cyberdad's snippet.

cyberdad
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20 Aug 2019, 9:53 pm

I'll make it simple for you Ezra (as you seem to be doing "contortions" to defend your position)

Go into an unemployment office (or whatever they are called in America) where there are people cueing to receive their welfare payments.

Use a wireless microphone and repeat loudly what you posted here e.g.Those who work should not have to support those who are unwilling to.

Then see if you can then make it outside alive

There are a lot of frustrated people who would love to get a "leg up" or opportunity for work. I can also tell you they get very very angry when they hear people call them things like you and persophene were labelling them.

EzraS
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20 Aug 2019, 9:54 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Conservatives believe they're helping people when they get them off of assistance programs and onto self-reliance.

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

cyberdad
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20 Aug 2019, 9:59 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Conservatives believe they're helping people when they get them off of assistance programs and onto self-reliance.

I call BS on that one...conservatives believe they are helping themselves when they can successfully get tax cuts. They are happy that that poor remain poor so they can successfully justify keeping wages stagnant.

Sorry dear...welcome to the real world

cyberdad
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20 Aug 2019, 10:01 pm

EzraS wrote:

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

For Reagan keeping people on the lowest possible wage gave the illusion there was less people on welfare.

EzraS
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20 Aug 2019, 10:03 pm

cyberdad wrote:

You are the one doing contortions and they are getting more absurd with each post.

Hopefully the majority of people who are getting unemployment benefits are unable to work, do not like being unable to work, and desire to get back to work asap.

But yes I am sure the moochers would like to kill me and stuff me in a dumpster*

*my hyperbole is based on your "get out alive" hyperbole.

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20 Aug 2019, 10:06 pm

EzraS wrote:

But yes I am sure the moochers would like to kill me and stuff me in a dumpster*

*my hyperbole is based on your "get out alive" hyperbole.

I assure you the moochers (the tiny minority who you and Persophene are trying to overblow) would be the ones hiding in the queue not wanting attention. No I was talking about the frustrated long term unemployed.

EzraS
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20 Aug 2019, 10:06 pm

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

For Reagan keeping people on the lowest possible wage gave the illusion there was less people on welfare.

Unskilled labor gets low wages. What you are advocating is more give them something for nothing. Even if they did not apply themselves, they should get paid the same as those who did.

beneficii
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20 Aug 2019, 10:10 pm

EzraS wrote:

It seems the wires got crossed then.

Anyway, I think everybody here would agree that fakery is wrong. I don't think you need to worry about that.

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EzraS
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20 Aug 2019, 10:15 pm

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

But yes I am sure the moochers would like to kill me and stuff me in a dumpster*

*my hyperbole is based on your "get out alive" hyperbole.

So you talk about what others are not talking about, as if they were talking about that, as a basis for a debate. Gotcha.

cyberdad
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20 Aug 2019, 10:20 pm

EzraS wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

But yes I am sure the moochers would like to kill me and stuff me in a dumpster*

*my hyperbole is based on your "get out alive" hyperbole.

So you talk about what others are not talking about, as if they were talking about that, as a basis for a debate. Gotcha.

Ahhh I see so what you are saying is that your comments and persphonese about employment are actually not worthy of debate. Thank you for clarifying that. I'll remember that next time.

cyberdad
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20 Aug 2019, 10:22 pm

EzraS wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

For Reagan keeping people on the lowest possible wage gave the illusion there was less people on welfare.

Unskilled labor gets low wages. What you are advocating is more give them something for nothing. Even if they did not apply themselves, they should get paid the same as those who did.

Or to put it another way it's republican talk for smoke and mirrors to say we got people of welfare by putting more of them on below minimum wage and making them feel like s**t if they think of asking for financial assistance to feed their children or pay their rent or pay school/medical bills.

beneficii
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20 Aug 2019, 10:35 pm

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

For Reagan keeping people on the lowest possible wage gave the illusion there was less people on welfare.

Unskilled labor gets low wages. What you are advocating is more give them something for nothing. Even if they did not apply themselves, they should get paid the same as those who did.

So so so much this!

It's that heirarchical thinking that was discussed in the video "Always a bigger fish".

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LoveNotHate
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20 Aug 2019, 11:00 pm

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

For Reagan keeping people on the lowest possible wage gave the illusion there was less people on welfare.

Unskilled labor gets low wages. What you are advocating is more give them something for nothing. Even if they did not apply themselves, they should get paid the same as those who did.

Someone has spending problem(s), so give them free money?

I would think 95% of the population would soon have a "spending problem", so they could get on this gravy train.
This is why ideological conservatives say , "Socialism destroys the incentive to work".

Waite Park Millionaire Goes On Food Stamps To Show Loopholes
https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2018/04/ ... gislature/

How millionaires collect food stamps
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-millio ... 1516044026

Why Are Millionaires Able to Receive Food Stamps?
https://fee.org/articles/why-are-millio ... od-stamps/

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beneficii
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20 Aug 2019, 11:09 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Keeping people on welfare gets votes and dependency.

For Reagan keeping people on the lowest possible wage gave the illusion there was less people on welfare.

Unskilled labor gets low wages. What you are advocating is more give them something for nothing. Even if they did not apply themselves, they should get paid the same as those who did.

So getting medical treatment or going to school should be no different than buying a Lexis? Is that what you're saying?

Also, we're talking about people who do work, often multiple jobs. And yet, you call them lazy?

Do you guys have any idea how physically draining it is to wash dishes all day or work as a server or bartender?

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