23 Feb 2022, 5:37 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I just don’t want the Putin Authoritarian Concept to spread.
Putin wants to spread this concept far and wide.
Putin wants to spread this concept far and wide.
It's interesting that King George of England has the opportunity to send in troops into Moscow and rescue his first cousin the Tsar and his family (including Queen Victoria's grand-daughter) from the bolsheviks but he chose not to.
The stubbornness of King George to help his own family may well have changed the course of world history. Had the Tsar survived there likely would never have been communism in Russia or later in China.
.
What does one thing have to do with the other?
It would have been nice to save the lives of the Russian Royal Family by extracting them from Moscow and whisking them away to Britain. But preventing the Bolshiviks from executing them would not have stopped the rise of Soviet Communism- the Russian Royals wouldnt have needed rescuing if the Reds didnt already control the capital and the heartland of Russia.
Just stating an interesting fact.
Please, can't you see your "facts" don't meet our expectations? <joke>
23 Feb 2022, 5:44 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Q: Would you prefer a psychopathic killer or a self-absorbed narcissist as the leader of your country? 
I much prefer a third choice.
3. A leader in the throes of dementia?
Any better?
Why does that have to be a third choice?
We have had that already... with Reagan and Trump.
Why do I have to be the creative one all the time?
Why don't *you* suggest something/k.
How about a competent, intelligent leader dedicated to liberal democracy?
330 million citizens and you managed a Trump and a Biden in recent years.
I wouldn't bet your left testicle on finding what you have described.
I don't think you're giving Biden enough credit. And remember, we had Obama, who was a decent enough President.
While Obama was a fantastic figurehead, he was basically a lame-duck president and was seen to be weak in terms of world politics, I.E. The Syria red line ultimatum, as an example.
I am aware he lacked overwhelming control in both houses, but he was shown to be ineffectual even in the area he could affect change.
Please, let us not derail the thread any further.
It is too impootant important to do so.
23 Feb 2022, 5:51 pm
kraftiekortie wrote:
I have Belarusian/Jewish ancestry, by the way.
I’ve been interested in Russian/Slavic culture for a while.
I’ve been interested in Russian/Slavic culture for a while.
OMG!! !
The bloody commies are coming out of the woodwork!! !
Initiate canadian national emergency protocols!! !
Declare Martial Law!! !
Bring out the National Guard!! !
Oh, dear, I don't see things ending well here. <sigh>
23 Feb 2022, 5:58 pm
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
You're still missing the main part: Eastern European countries joined NATO because we knew some day Russia would start doing what it's doing now. Without NATO, Russia would just do it more easily.
Tsars did imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Soviets did thinly veiled imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Putin is a worthy descendant of this old tradition.
Tsars did imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Soviets did thinly veiled imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Putin is a worthy descendant of this old tradition.
Sounds no different to a lot of allied forces. Perhaps just like how the middle East looks at allied powers with distain for constant brinksmanship, Russia sees NATO in the same light and all states under it (or intending to join).
Not liking someone's choices does not justify an invasion.
Others supporting the choice you don't like are not to blame for your reaction.
Or would you be fine with someone beating their life partner to near-death because the partner tried to leave them?
The bottom line is, the eastern Nato nations have been proven to have had a valid fear of russian imperialism.
Pootin has by decree annexed a sovereign nation.
"Who in Lord's name does Putin think gives him the right?"
23 Feb 2022, 8:14 pm
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
If you see NATO as an equivalent of Nazi Germany then you should study history a bit more.
You basically claim that Russia had right to attack Ukraine and seize their territories because they didn't like Ukrainian politics.
You basically claim that Russia had right to attack Ukraine and seize their territories because they didn't like Ukrainian politics.
You brought up the Nazi Germany analogy and relating it to Ukraine being stuck between two super powers though.
If their politics means NATO missiles, aircraft, ships and troops are on Russia's border then Ukrainian territory, from Russians eyes poses a threat to them. Strategically Ukraine poses a bigger threat to Russia with it's location than any other nation.
It is good to see the discussion has finally changed emphasis away from eastern NATO member's rightful fear of an imperialistic russia.
As I have said previously, I can appreciate russia's concerns and why it felt it needed to invade/annex the Crimean Peninsula, to secure shipping access.
Just sayin'.
23 Feb 2022, 8:23 pm
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
I was refering to your "victims of geography" term that you seem to use as just a shrug off.
It's a tragedy to be a "victim of geography" and "victims of geography" deserve support.
Especially from other potential "victims of geography" - but also from anyone decent.
It's a tragedy to be a "victim of geography" and "victims of geography" deserve support.
Especially from other potential "victims of geography" - but also from anyone decent.
Lets replace "Victims of Geography" and "Ukraine" with "NATO's giant unsinkable aircraft carrier that blocks all of Russian southern sea access " and it makes more sense why they're attacking that aircraft carrier.
Sort of like that "Giant Cuban nuclear missile submarine island of death" the US shown extreme hostility towards many decades ago.
If someone is in a difficult geographical position, then don't p**s off the neighbours.
So, you are saying cuba was pissing off its neighbour with its attempt to install nuclear weaponry?
If so, I agree.
Is Ukraine causing security concerns for the russian dictatorship by being too politically close to Democratic elements of Europe?
I have to say, yes.
Is the invasion of Ukraine an illegal/illegitimate act of war on a sovereign nation?
What do you think?
23 Feb 2022, 8:28 pm
magz wrote:
Russian goal is to rebuild their empire and nothing short of letting them do it would "solve their concerns".
I am someone who in such a scenario would be likely to end up in the said empire. And you know what? Hard not to react emotionally when you know what it means.
I am someone who in such a scenario would be likely to end up in the said empire. And you know what? Hard not to react emotionally when you know what it means.
Surely Nades can appreciate this fact?
You don't have to be Einstein's dog.
23 Feb 2022, 10:32 pm
23 Feb 2022, 10:57 pm
23 Feb 2022, 11:30 pm
cyberdad wrote:
Putin has declared "we will defend ourselves" as a warning to other countries who enter the disputed territories
Nobody can afford a ground war let alone nuclear conflict over Ukraine. China has backed his invasion. Only a matter of time before Taiwan is next. Then Australia will have to make a decision,
If the US defends Taiwan then Australia is duty bound to enter the war and with our reliance on China the former will make sure this country collapses into an economic backwater
Nobody can afford a ground war let alone nuclear conflict over Ukraine. China has backed his invasion. Only a matter of time before Taiwan is next. Then Australia will have to make a decision,
If the US defends Taiwan then Australia is duty bound to enter the war and with our reliance on China the former will make sure this country collapses into an economic backwater
Look on the bright side, with Uncle Joe as POTUS, The US will do nothing but install sanctions on china if they invade Taiwan.
No need to fear a kinetic war with china at this stage.
I hope I am dead and buried, due to natural causes, before china invades Australia.
BTW, the russians were targetting Ukraine jets at the airfields.
24 Feb 2022, 12:05 am
The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 44
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,664
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.
24 Feb 2022, 1:47 am
24 Feb 2022, 2:11 am
24 Feb 2022, 2:45 am
24 Feb 2022, 3:10 am
Pepe wrote:
Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
I was refering to your "victims of geography" term that you seem to use as just a shrug off.
It's a tragedy to be a "victim of geography" and "victims of geography" deserve support.
Especially from other potential "victims of geography" - but also from anyone decent.
It's a tragedy to be a "victim of geography" and "victims of geography" deserve support.
Especially from other potential "victims of geography" - but also from anyone decent.
Lets replace "Victims of Geography" and "Ukraine" with "NATO's giant unsinkable aircraft carrier that blocks all of Russian southern sea access " and it makes more sense why they're attacking that aircraft carrier.
Sort of like that "Giant Cuban nuclear missile submarine island of death" the US shown extreme hostility towards many decades ago.
If someone is in a difficult geographical position, then don't p**s off the neighbours.
So, you are saying cuba was pissing off its neighbour with its attempt to install nuclear weaponry?
If so, I agree.
Is Ukraine causing security concerns for the russian dictatorship by being too politically close to Democratic elements of Europe?
I have to say, yes.
Is the invasion of Ukraine an illegal/illegitimate act of war on a sovereign nation?
What do you think?
It's illegal as hell and an act of war, but not trying to back snarling dogs into corners is rule No1 of avoiding conflict. Looking at the world map Ukraine is a corner.
Understanding the concerns and motivations of an enemy (even a traditional one) is always important. De-escalation, even at this stage seems pretty easy given the motivations are crystal clear.
24 Feb 2022, 3:54 am
