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ruveyn
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18 Nov 2011, 8:37 pm

Niall wrote:
I think the only way the free market system can keep generating ever increasing wealth is through technological breakthroughs. Technological breakthroughs lead to technological infrastructures which are usually grown through cooperative effort between private markets and governments. Technological infrastructure forms the basis for new demand which grows wealth.



That is correct. The free market system lives on innovation and dies for lack of it.

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18 Nov 2011, 9:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Niall wrote:
I think the only way the free market system can keep generating ever increasing wealth is through technological breakthroughs. Technological breakthroughs lead to technological infrastructures which are usually grown through cooperative effort between private markets and governments. Technological infrastructure forms the basis for new demand which grows wealth.



That is correct. The free market system lives on innovation and dies for lack of it.

ruveyn


Exactly why greed becomes a major problem........now innovation is seen as the competition that must be suppressed. Companies already making a lot of income on a product don't want someone coming out with something better or more efficient, and the huge corporations have political influence so they can use the government to their advantage.



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19 Nov 2011, 4:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
Niall wrote:
I think the only way the free market system can keep generating ever increasing wealth is through technological breakthroughs. Technological breakthroughs lead to technological infrastructures which are usually grown through cooperative effort between private markets and governments. Technological infrastructure forms the basis for new demand which grows wealth.



That is correct. The free market system lives on innovation and dies for lack of it.

ruveyn


Please check your quotes. I didn't write that. Marshall did, and I only agree with some hesitancy.

Those technological breakthroughs and increased wealth can only reach the rest of us through increased burden on finite natural resources, which is unsustainable.

The only way we might (note might) be able to find a way aroud that is a very high recycling rate, which is not the same as dumping our ewaste in Africa and letting it pollute chunks of other people's backyards, which is what we're doing at the moment.

This assumes a sustainable solution to our energy and overpopulation problems.



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19 Nov 2011, 8:27 am

The only answer worse than more government is world government.

Government should regulate business, but could never run it.

The only answer, do more with less. We are, the tablet computer with WiFi, will soon replace all books, music devices, and screen information, at a low price. Soon, all school books, which is going to kill the print industry, publishing, paper making, and a lot of retailing.

It does it all at a lower price using less energy while giving the freedom to use it anywhere. It produces mass unemployment.

Energy consumption is down, waste and pollution in production, disposal of old products, landfill. Education is updated, available to more, cheaper, at the cost of jobs gone forever.

Most of our unemployment is caused by the computer, better machines, which have made the world more productive with less workers.

Costs are lower, use higher. In 1960, a tank of gas cost me $10, @ $0.50 a gallon, in Silver. That was ten ounces, cars got very low mileage, 8-10.

Now I get three times the mileage, in a much safer car, and the same twenty gallons, minus Lead, now costs two ounces of Silver.

In the near future I expect twice current mileage, a still safer vehicle, that like the modern cars, also last longer. 1960 cars lasted three to five years, modern cars three times that.

It works while growing, but we have come to the point where advances cost jobs. We have also saturated the transport market. American and European car companies have to sell to China, South America, they would go out of business without an expanding market.

Cars that get 100 miles per gallon and last twenty years, will killl oil, autos, and highway building. Detroit, and all the Great Lakes have been in manufacturing decline for thirty years. Detroit lost a million people.

Now it is hitting national. We are running better on 15% less workers, unless you are one of them. It is not going to stop.

Doing more with less means smaller homes, lower costs, which kills taxes, building materials, construction work. The McMansion did keep materials and labor working. Small house, big garden, will also hurt the food industry.

What we should do, small efficent homes, self production of food, owning less, and that with a long service life, will kill the economy.

Social Security, Government and Union Pensions, are all Ponzis, based on having more future workers to pay for them, and growing industry to support their investments. 90% of the stock market is Pension Funds. Declining earnings, 2% Bonds, market losses, declining workforce, cuts in government services, lower tax income, it is all falling.

The response a decade ago when this was known, send everyone credit card offers, anyone can get a mortgage, and start a war on terror. Something like War on fuzzy gray shapes seen in the night, with Homeland Security everywhere, with a government paycheck. Bush Bucks, just send out money, cut taxes, and as he is called, "Helicopter Ben," just drop money over cities.

Now no credit, the wars ending, the bailout, across the board cuts in government spending, reduced employment, coming to a defense contractor near you, plus returning troops, with no jobs. The banks are bankrupt, housing will never recover, and Europe was a myth.

This was not caused by Capitalists, this is a government managed economy. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates did not create this mess.

If all income was subject to Social Security, and the top tax rate was 60%, we would have no debt, sound retirements, could give everyone food stamps, rent stamps, health care, free education.

That would not solve our structural economic problem, technology replaces workers, and will continue doing so.

The only place we can use that workforce is in Planet Repair. We have run down the soil, logged for building materials and paper, like it was endless. Forests also produce the air we breath, bring the rains, and support a chain of life. Top soil is a rare and valueable thing, ours is depleated.

The system that supports our lives is not government, industry, capitalism, it is dirt, plants, animals, trees, rivers, the oceans. We have plenty of land, we could all live in Texas. The land we have could be much better preserved and improved. We are part of life, and depend on all of life.

It was damaged in one form of gaining wealth, it can be restored in another, Gullies filled, soil restored, organic matter increased, improved nitrogen Cycle, higher Oxygen content, climate buffers for the coming changes.

We have the materials, the water, the surplus labor. It is the best we could do to combat Global Warming, Cooling, sideways, and our fellow living creatures, and the only thing that will leave a better planet for the future. It is the one form of production that will not create a surplus.

Unemployment could reach half as the new normal, it is the only project large enough to use half the people for hundreds of years, and it is shovel ready.

This change we are going through will not last, we will reach a new stability, people will live to fit into the new reality. We need a change buffer, where the next few generations can live through the transformation. We will reach peak population, it will decline, we will live better on less. The only thing we can change is the background, forests, rich grasslands, clean rivers, life everywhere. We can not have more land, but we can make what we have several times more productive.



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02 Dec 2011, 3:20 am

:lmao:

You all need to read "Yertle the Turtle" by Dr. Seuss.


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02 Dec 2011, 9:20 pm

The system will not collapse per se. What happens is that the population will become divided into winners and losers. People that have jobs and people that do not have jobs. What collapses is that the people who have jobs will refuse to help the unemployed. Even family members will refuse to help one another and will say that they cannot afford to help their poor relatives. So the system will collapse for some but not for everyone.



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02 Dec 2011, 10:35 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
The system will not collapse per se. What happens is that the population will become divided into winners and losers. People that have jobs and people that do not have jobs. What collapses is that the people who have jobs will refuse to help the unemployed. Even family members will refuse to help one another and will say that they cannot afford to help their poor relatives. So the system will collapse for some but not for everyone.


Why do you say that? Voluntary charity has always existed throughout the ages.

ruveyn



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02 Dec 2011, 11:03 pm

The receivers of charity will never have the same standard of living that they enjoyed before the economic collapse.



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03 Dec 2011, 1:34 am

androbot2084 wrote:
The system will not collapse per se. What happens is that the population will become divided into winners and losers. People that have jobs and people that do not have jobs. What collapses is that the people who have jobs will refuse to help the unemployed. Even family members will refuse to help one another and will say that they cannot afford to help their poor relatives. So the system will collapse for some but not for everyone.


I guess I have a lot to look forward to then :roll: ........I'll do my best to find a way to live off the land so that I can actually live, and if that does not work out then who knows.


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03 Dec 2011, 8:08 am

androbot2084 wrote:
The system will not collapse per se. What happens is that the population will become divided into winners and losers. People that have jobs and people that do not have jobs. What collapses is that the people who have jobs will refuse to help the unemployed. Even family members will refuse to help one another and will say that they cannot afford to help their poor relatives. So the system will collapse for some but not for everyone.


This is certainly one model, but if you look carefully at the details, this would simply create a deteriorating spiral into wealth for the few and poverty for most.

In any case, this is what's happening already, if you look at it on a global scale. That doesn't make it right - far from it, in my view.

I mostly agree with Inventor's take, above, although I disagree with some of the detail. I do agree that what we need is some sort of massive Marshall Plan for the planet (not a new idea: see Earth Policy Institute: Plan B) which might deal with our incipient environmental catastrophe (my field is ecology, and I can assure you this has already started) and reinvigorate our economies, although I would argue this should not be done through our existing neo-capitalist models, which suffer disproof both in the sense that many of their underlying assumptions are demonstrably false, and that the whole system has failed in its promise to provide for the majority.

We need a better idea economically, and unfettered capitalism will just channel more wealth into the hands of fewer humans.



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03 Dec 2011, 8:44 am

androbot2084 wrote:
The receivers of charity will never have the same standard of living that they enjoyed before the economic collapse.


That is because many of them were enjoying the loot of politically sanctioned theft.

After Al Capone was put in prison, his standard of living fell drastically.

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03 Dec 2011, 10:37 am

ruveyn wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
The receivers of charity will never have the same standard of living that they enjoyed before the economic collapse.


That is because many of them were enjoying the loot of politically sanctioned theft.

After Al Capone was put in prison, his standard of living fell drastically.

ruveyn


How horrible that money paid in taxes might go to people who need financial help......thats a crime against humanity.


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ruveyn
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03 Dec 2011, 10:39 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

How horrible that money paid in taxes might go to people who need financial help......thats a crime against humanity.


It is a crime, but that is exactly how the System works. Your government, hard at work, screwing you and me.

ruveyn



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03 Dec 2011, 10:48 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

How horrible that money paid in taxes might go to people who need financial help......thats a crime against humanity.


It is a crime, but that is exactly how the System works. Your government, hard at work, screwing you and me.

ruveyn


Well I agree the government is screwing everyone, as are the corporations......and half the time taxes paid don't even go into welfare or public services so that I do have an issue with. However I don't see what is so evil about distribution of wealth when you have people in the country who are living in poverty and could probably use some help.

If you oppose the idea of taxation what would you suggest? Or are you against tax money going to help those in need specifically?


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03 Dec 2011, 10:56 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

How horrible that money paid in taxes might go to people who need financial help......thats a crime against humanity.


It is a crime, but that is exactly how the System works. Your government, hard at work, screwing you and me.

ruveyn


Well I agree the government is screwing everyone, as are the corporations......and half the time taxes paid don't even go into welfare or public services so that I do have an issue with. However I don't see what is so evil about distribution of wealth when you have people in the country who are living in poverty and could probably use some help.

If you oppose the idea of taxation what would you suggest? Or are you against tax money going to help those in need specifically?


More to the point, you have people living in poverty because of a socio-economic system that rewards contacts and luck, while pretending it rewards hard work, which that same government supports because it's largely made up of people who are making a lot of money out of that system.

In such a case, they might be a bit less miserly and tax the corporations and rich individuals who screw over poor people in order to make a profit and support those who were less lucky instead of allowing them to get away with slippin through tax loopholes, left there for the benefit of those same rich people.

What is really criminal is the activity of market capitalism and the assorted right-wing political parties round the world who allow the scum making a lot of money out of it to get away with their excesses, while keeping the profits and externalising the costs on the rest of us!



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03 Dec 2011, 11:02 am

Niall wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

How horrible that money paid in taxes might go to people who need financial help......thats a crime against humanity.


It is a crime, but that is exactly how the System works. Your government, hard at work, screwing you and me.

ruveyn


Well I agree the government is screwing everyone, as are the corporations......and half the time taxes paid don't even go into welfare or public services so that I do have an issue with. However I don't see what is so evil about distribution of wealth when you have people in the country who are living in poverty and could probably use some help.

If you oppose the idea of taxation what would you suggest? Or are you against tax money going to help those in need specifically?


More to the point, you have people living in poverty because of a socio-economic system that rewards contacts and luck, while pretending it rewards hard work, which that same government supports because it's largely made up of people who are making a lot of money out of that system.

In such a case, they might be a bit less miserly and tax the corporations and rich individuals who screw over poor people in order to make a profit and support those who were less lucky instead of allowing them to get away with slippin through tax loopholes, left there for the benefit of those same rich people.

What is really criminal is the activity of market capitalism and the assorted right-wing political parties round the world who allow the scum making a lot of money out of it to get away with their excesses, while keeping the profits and externalising the costs on the rest of us!


Yes that is a bit of a better description.


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