Explosion And Deaths At Ariana Grande Concert

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Biscuitman
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28 May 2017, 3:42 am

cyberdad wrote:
As for the apparent comment from yourself and Jacoby that foreign migrants somehow threaten local culture is nonsense. Britain has an old cultural roots beyond beer and football and if locals are too ignorant to know their own culture then that's hardly the fault of a new migrant


Absolutely this. Certain people so often drone on and on about about culture erosion but I often wonder if they are judging this on nothing more than their own nostalgia tinged childhood memories rather than understanding the full range of cultures the UK has hosted for decades, if not centuries.



Aristophanes
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28 May 2017, 7:29 am

Biscuitman wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
As for the apparent comment from yourself and Jacoby that foreign migrants somehow threaten local culture is nonsense. Britain has an old cultural roots beyond beer and football and if locals are too ignorant to know their own culture then that's hardly the fault of a new migrant


Absolutely this. Certain people so often drone on and on about about culture erosion but I often wonder if they are judging this on nothing more than their own nostalgia tinged childhood memories rather than understanding the full range of cultures the UK has hosted for decades, if not centuries.

Your comment reminded me of the Kinks song, "The Village Green Preservation Society".



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28 May 2017, 9:26 am

cyberdad wrote:
smudge wrote:
:? So that means we should be taught a lesson and lean back and let others ruin our culture, that we had to build too?

I understand no country deserves to be "over-run" with migrants so I'm not advocating the UK (or Australia) open borders

I think common sense can prevail with a few simple provisos
1) if you are an English speaking qualified migrant who can fill a recognised employment gap then this should be a priority. We already do this with nurses in Australia where the number of nursing graduates Vs placements means Australian hospitals have no choice but to recruit foreign nurses to fill the shorfall
2) If you are in physical danger in your own country then come in through the normal channels via refugee programs

I have no problem allowing people (of any background) living in our society while their refugee claims are being processed

As for the apparent comment from yourself and Jacoby that foreign migrants somehow threaten local culture is nonsense. Britain has an old cultural roots beyond beer and football and if locals are too ignorant to know their own culture then that's hardly the fault of a new migrant


So should Israel and Japan open their borders? Why wouldn't local culture be threatened by being usurped by migrants as it has in the past? It might not bother you and you might think it's even a good thing but to deny that it's changing things doesn't make a lot of sense. Moral relativists tell us that all cultures are the equal and that we shouldn't care what values or customs they bring, it's a religious mantra in of its self but not one based on reality. Am I terrible person for saying Western culture is superior to Islamic culture? Do you think it would be a good thing if a large part of the West became Islamic? Not something I'm worried about in the US(which has its own unique set of issues when it comes to immigration) but 50-100 years from now in Europe if things keep going at their current pace will look a lot different to say the least. We're not at the 'end of history', human liberty and progress are very fragile things.

I don't oppose all immigration and I don't have an issue with most foreign cultures however I think immigration should fit the interests of the citizenry not big business or cynical party politics. 'Refugee' is a term that has no real meaning at this point because it's being used for people that aren't fleeing any war, most of the 'refugees' coming to Europe right now are not from Syria but are rather are economic migrants from Africa & the Middle East who have taken advantage of the open door policy and invitation from Angela Merkel. I replied to a message earlier that rationalized that 6.5 million people(the number of people estimated to be waiting to get into Europe in surrounding countries) would not be a lot so obviously we're not on the same page, there's already I think over 3 million 'refugees' in Europe at this moment.

Speaking the language, having a marketable skill, and not being openly hostile to our culture & way of life should really be the bare minimum; the truth is the west doesn't need any more laborers or any other people who can't support themselves on the dole because they are not a net-positive. Illegal immigration in the US has destroyed a lot of trade work in this country, blue collar folks can't make a living in this country anymore and it shouldn't be any surprise when over 25% of trade work is being done with illegal labor. Overrun obviously seems to be a subjective term if you don't think we're already overrun. Keep the debate in reality and don't slip back into ideology, tell me how this helps poor people in this country? I think immigration needs to be slowed and restricted to those most qualified and most able to assimilate, you don't become a closed society just because you're not letting in millions of people every year.

It's easy for you to try to sound reasonable and say you don't support this or that when it comes to immigration but the reality is whenever somebody proposes a change no matter how modest they get shouted down as the most terrible racist Nazi, we shouldn't be forced to have open borders or to be overrun but we're not allowed to do or say anything to change that from happening. At least in the US you are allowed free speech, in Europe or Canada you are liable to be brought up in front of some tribunal for hate speech.

Cultural rot is a problem in the west but I do not blame foreigners, I blame far left deconstructionists who we have had far too much tolerance for in public life. Useful idiots hard at work destroying society they hate so much.



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28 May 2017, 4:39 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
As for the apparent comment from yourself and Jacoby that foreign migrants somehow threaten local culture is nonsense. Britain has an old cultural roots beyond beer and football and if locals are too ignorant to know their own culture then that's hardly the fault of a new migrant


Absolutely this. Certain people so often drone on and on about about culture erosion but I often wonder if they are judging this on nothing more than their own nostalgia tinged childhood memories rather than understanding the full range of cultures the UK has hosted for decades, if not centuries.


Funny how you think, if cultural nostalgia is linked to childhood, why nobody thinks about implementing the same common sense the ISIS criminals have had on it and focus on channeling migration through a controlled visa net migration system that implements something that Brussels and merkel forgot on their way down to customs.
As far as cultural Britain goes, its no different to hunger strikes in Spain or bored regulation in France.
Does anyone here actually know what culture is? Lets think, Grand history, philosophers, naturalists, mountaineers,
pioneers, authors, language/s derived from the culture, Sculpture, Fine Art, Playwrights, Music and Food.
I can't control my lust for anything thats cultural it seems, maybe forgetting that class distinction is an entirely separate thing and cuts itself off from finding resolttion.
Nobody in Manchester deserved to die, Nobody in the Bataclan deserved to die, and nobody fighting terrorism deserves to die either because they never started this damn phoney coward war in the first place.
The real cold war is on your front doorstep and not even a parish priest would try and score points against that.



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28 May 2017, 4:45 pm

I'd love to back up from the weird battle lines. What's with the insistence that one side is perfect and blameless, and the other side is pure evil? It stifles debate.


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cyberdad
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28 May 2017, 8:29 pm

Biscuitman wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
As for the apparent comment from yourself and Jacoby that foreign migrants somehow threaten local culture is nonsense. Britain has an old cultural roots beyond beer and football and if locals are too ignorant to know their own culture then that's hardly the fault of a new migrant


Absolutely this. Certain people so often drone on and on about about culture erosion but I often wonder if they are judging this on nothing more than their own nostalgia tinged childhood memories rather than understanding the full range of cultures the UK has hosted for decades, if not centuries.

Hit the nail on the head. If people don't even know their own cultural roots then they hardly have a baseline to judge what is cultural erosion



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28 May 2017, 8:43 pm

Jacoby wrote:
So should Israel and Japan open their borders? Why wouldn't local culture be threatened by being usurped by migrants as it has in the past? It might not bother you and you might think it's even a good thing but to deny that it's changing things doesn't make a lot of sense.

Geopolitics also determines a countries policies. Japan is a traditional native and homogeneous society. It is socially conservative and isolationist. Israel was built as a religious state for Judaism. You cant compare these to countries like the US or Australia which is reliant on immigration and has no state culture/religion.

Jacoby wrote:
Moral relativists tell us that all cultures are the equal and that we shouldn't care what values or customs they bring, it's a religious mantra in of its self but not one based on reality.

Moral relativism allows understanding that some cultures have different moral standards to us Jacoby. For example we don't preach about public executions or child marriage or polygamy in some countries because they are culturally accepted practices over there. However once people choose to live in the US or Australia they are also bound by our laws. It's not rocket science

Jacoby wrote:
'Refugee' is a term that has no real meaning at this point because it's being used for people that aren't fleeing any war, most of the 'refugees' coming to Europe right now are not from Syria but are rather are economic migrants from Africa & the Middle East who have taken advantage of the open door policy and invitation from Angela Merkel.

That is the whole reason they have refugee processing. If after processing a person is deemed to face risk of persecution in their own country then it's our moral obligation (whether you like it or not) to accept them into our society

Jacoby wrote:
Speaking the language, having a marketable skill, and not being openly hostile to our culture & way of life should really be the bare minimum; the truth is the west doesn't need any more laborers or any other people who can't support themselves on the dole because they are not a net-positive. Illegal immigration in the US has destroyed a lot of trade work in this country, blue collar folks can't make a living in this country anymore and it shouldn't be any surprise when over 25% of trade work is being done with illegal labor.

Illegal immigration is "illegal" which has nothing to do with legal migration or people granted refugee status.

Jacoby wrote:
Cultural rot is a problem in the west but I do not blame foreigners, I blame far left deconstructionists who we have had far too much tolerance for in public life. Useful idiots hard at work destroying society they hate so much.

What has the left wing got to do with cultural rot? for most of the younger generation culture is based on whether you use an iphone or android. They don't listen to old people like us Jacoby.



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28 May 2017, 8:59 pm

Empathy wrote:
Does anyone here actually know what culture is? Lets think, Grand history, philosophers, naturalists, mountaineers,
pioneers, authors, language/s derived from the culture, Sculpture, Fine Art, Playwrights, Music and Food.
I can't control my lust for anything thats cultural it seems, maybe forgetting that class distinction is an entirely separate thing and cuts itself off from finding resolttion.
Nobody in Manchester deserved to die, Nobody in the Bataclan deserved to die, and nobody fighting terrorism deserves to die either because they never started this damn phoney coward war in the first place.
The real cold war is on your front doorstep and not even a parish priest would try and score points against that.

The people launching attacks on innocent civilians (such as in Manchester) in the UK are fellow British citizens and (I believe) all born in Britain. They are not a result of "slack" customs/immigration.

Secondly class has nothing to do with culture in Britain. For example the entire landed gentry in the House of Lords and even the British Royal family are supposed to be the flag bearers of British tradition and culture, yet they are the recipients of usurpers - the French/Latin invaders who bought with them a foreign culture into England in the middle ages which now parades itself as "tradition". They are no more "culturally British" than the beer guzzling soccer hooligans draped in Union Jacks or for that matter a muslim convert with her blue eyes peering out of a Burqa walking around Newham markets or blonde haired hari Krishna chanting vedic scriptures in Southall

Honestly people don't even know their own history can hardly claim to know whom they are and are certainly not in a position to judge newcomers as eroding some mythical monolithic British culture



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28 May 2017, 9:42 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Geopolitics also determines a countries policies. Japan is a traditional native and homogeneous society. It is socially conservative and isolationist. Israel was built as a religious state for Judaism. You cant compare these to countries like the US or Australia which is reliant on immigration and has no state culture/religion.

Moral relativism allows understanding that some cultures have different moral standards to us Jacoby. For example we don't preach about public executions or child marriage or polygamy in some countries because they are culturally accepted practices over there. However once people choose to live in the US or Australia they are also bound by our laws. It's not rocket science

That is the whole reason they have refugee processing. If after processing a person is deemed to face risk of persecution in their own country then it's our moral obligation (whether you like it or not) to accept them into our society

Illegal immigration is "illegal" which has nothing to do with legal migration or people granted refugee status.

What has the left wing got to do with cultural rot? for most of the younger generation culture is based on whether you use an iphone or android. They don't listen to old people like us Jacoby.


So Israel and Japan don't have to take any refugees because? What about Gulf Arabs who won't take any? The US has no obligation to anyone except its citizens who it fails miserably. The multi kulti freaks are pretty much opposed deporting anyone even criminals, as evidence by the massive freak out about Trump. They're not talking about legal immigration when they talk 'immigration reform' in the US and it all ties together, if there are 11 to 30 million illegal immigrants is why legal immigration and refugees should be slowed to trickle until the problem isn't a problem anymore. The 'left' has fully embraced cultural Marxism which seeks to deconstruct and destroy every aspect of western culture, this rot is entirely their intention.



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28 May 2017, 9:54 pm

Up to 23k jihadists in the UK, 500 different plots being investigated by MI5 involving 3000 jihadists deemed the most dangerous. People don't understand how bad the situation is in Europe, a good portion of foreign fighters with ISIS are EU citizens and they'll be coming back.



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29 May 2017, 2:06 am

Jacoby wrote:
So Israel and Japan don't have to take any refugees because? What about Gulf Arabs who won't take any?

Because they don't want to. The US isn't a "global policeman" so nobody can force these countries to do anything

Jacoby wrote:
The US has no obligation to anyone except its citizens who it fails miserably. The multi kulti freaks are pretty much opposed deporting anyone even criminals, as evidence by the massive freak out about Trump.

Not sure where you get this information?

Jacoby wrote:
They're not talking about legal immigration when they talk 'immigration reform' in the US and it all ties together, if there are 11 to 30 million illegal immigrants is why legal immigration and refugees should be slowed to trickle until the problem isn't a problem anymore.

What happened to Trump's wall? I thought you yanks voted him in to plug the holes on the border?

Jacoby wrote:
The 'left' has fully embraced cultural Marxism which seeks to deconstruct and destroy every aspect of western culture, this rot is entirely their intention.

If not for us "cultural Marxists" on the left wing of politics we would still have slavery, apartheid (Jim Crow laws). no mimumum wage, women would remain powerless housewives, gays would be thrown in prison and autistic people would be sterilised (yes your beloved right wing zealots still believe in eugenics) and locked away in institutions
Given that prospect I'd rather have cultural rot.



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29 May 2017, 6:51 am

cyberdad wrote:
The people launching attacks on innocent civilians (such as in Manchester) in the UK are fellow British citizens and (I believe) all born in Britain. They are not a result of "slack" customs/immigration.

Secondly class has nothing to do with culture in Britain. For example the entire landed gentry in the House of Lords and even the British Royal family are supposed to be the flag bearers of British tradition and culture, yet they are the recipients of usurpers - the French/Latin invaders who bought with them a foreign culture into England in the middle ages which now parades itself as "tradition".

Honestly people don't even know their own history can hardly claim to know whom they are.


Was I labelling you or saying your old? You're simply exploiting the culture as you see fit, like others have done over the years and everyone else has to tie in with your exasperating demands on it?

There was never any value in a class sytem which is all based on lies evil and corruption and I was describing cultural influence by what Biscuitman quoted.
You earlier described Brits as not seeing beyond their own party hooliganism which is why society has left us all in this mess and I doubt if drawing a ceasefire under it is going to prevent a religious warfare that has flooded societies interests.
Culture erosion is created out of fear, angst, and religious and social bullying, handed down by each foreign and Brit.

My position is clear. I was born and grew up in Great Britain, the high earners and luxury earnt by some, have not been passed down future generations as widely as the abuse of principle and common injustice.

The attacker may have grown up in Manchester but he was ideologised by trips to Lybia and left there to join criminal organisations run by ISIS in the middle East and like Jacoby said; other radicalised youngsters have done the same suicide,religious, homophobic death acts and its disgraceful to think its still happening. If these people are known to act suspiciously or are on police agendas, more need to be done to sluice the perpetrators out.



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29 May 2017, 7:26 am

Quote:
Quote:
Imams must issue a fatwa against Muslim radicals, says ex-Met Police chief who was in charge during 7/7

By Tarique Ghaffur, Former Met Police Chief, For The Mail On Sunday

Like millions of others, I was left horrified by the barbaric Manchester attack. My heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones and to those who were injured.

As an Asian Mancunian, I felt appalled beyond words. My own children could have been among those killed in the UK's worst atrocity since 7/7.

I was heartbroken but I was not surprised.

As one of the Met's most senior officers, having seen classified intelligence, I knew more than most about the jihadi threat facing Britain. As security co-ordinator of the 2012 Olympics, I knew public events were soft targets.

I always felt it was a matter of when, not if. Last Monday, my worst fears were realised.

We face an unprecedented terrorist threat in Britain – about 3,000 extremists are subjects of interest to MI5 and police, and about 500 plots are being monitored.

Add more than 400 jihadis who have returned from Syria and you realise the numbers are way too many for the security services and police to monitor. The atrocities of Manchester and Westminster have shown that ordinary surveillance, monitoring and tagging are not working.

The time has come to set up special centres to detain these 3,000 extremists.

These would be community-based centres where they would be risk-assessed and theologically examined.


Then the extremists would be made to go through a deradicalisation programme, using the expertise of imams, charity workers and counter-terrorism officers. Those who can be deradicalised should be carefully allowed back into the community. But those deemed too dangerous should be locked up.

These centres would have oversight from vetted Muslim and other community leaders, who would ensure they stayed within the law.

There is some precedent for these centres. At the height of the Troubles, internment camps were set up for 2,000 deemed extremists. I know those camps led to hunger strikes, but the centres I'm proposing would be different as they would have backing from Muslim leaders.

I would like imams to issue a collective fatwa, condemning terrorist atrocities and giving religious backing to the new centres for the good of society. With their support, the centres would not be seen as a 'tool of the state'.

This would also show that Muslim leaders are doing something to make the UK safe and not just delivering words.

I know many will oppose these centres as oppressive. But the threat we face from terrorism is unprecedented and if we do not take bold steps now we will not be able to prevent future attacks.

As a further solution, the Government should overhaul the entire asylum system.

In the 1980s and 1990s, hundreds of asylum seekers came in, claiming they were fleeing persecution. We had no way of seeing if they were genuine, or hate clerics lying to get in. Many extremists who came in never integrated.

Extremist asylum seekers need to be re-vetted, and if they are deemed a threat they should be kicked out. The Home Office should set up a 'cold cases' review team to re-examine all asylum seekers.

We have never faced a terrorism threat like this. So let us have a proper national debate and not be afraid to speak openly for fear of offending any communities, or for the sake of political correctness.



Former high ranking officer with the Met suggesting internment(as was done to the IRA in the early 70s)as the answer to the thousands of dangerous jihadists that call the UK home. I don't think the people involved with this that know the real extent of this problem probably don't sleep very well at night.



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29 May 2017, 4:24 pm

Image Tony Walter is being named as the 23rd man who committed suicide from ptsd coming back to haunt him. He'd been subjected to terrifying ordeals on the 7/7 bombings of 2005. He was caught upin the Edgeware bombings just a few feet from where the blast took place.
He was one of the 700 injured and had shrapnel injuries. https://uk.news.yahoo.com/7-7-survivor- ... 26502.html



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29 May 2017, 9:46 pm

Empathy wrote:
Was I labelling you or saying your old? You're simply exploiting the culture as you see fit, like others have done over the years and everyone else has to tie in with your exasperating demands on it?

I have no demands? just stating the bleeding obvious...

Empathy wrote:
There was never any value in a class sytem which is all based on lies evil and corruption and I was describing cultural influence by what Biscuitman quoted.

The class system in the UK is "imposed" you have it whether you like it or not and everyone "fits in"

Empathy wrote:
You earlier described Brits as not seeing beyond their own party hooliganism which is why society has left us all in this mess and I doubt if drawing a ceasefire under it is going to prevent a religious warfare that has flooded societies interests.

They choose this no?

Empathy wrote:
Culture erosion is created out of fear, angst, and religious and social bullying, handed down by each foreign and Brit.

Cultural erosion stems from apathy ignorance passed down from our parents

Empathy wrote:
My position is clear. I was born and grew up in Great Britain, the high earners and luxury earnt by some, have not been passed down future generations as widely as the abuse of principle and common injustice.

Free market economics refers to "trickle down" which is quite literally all that is coming down to those of us who haven't been diligent social climbers, many of those who were the children of the socialist revolution in the 60s are now running merchant banks - much Like Orwell's model of social change

Empathy wrote:
The attacker may have grown up in Manchester but he was ideologised by trips to Lybia and left there to join criminal organisations run by ISIS in the middle East and like Jacoby said; other radicalised youngsters have done the same suicide,religious, homophobic death acts and its disgraceful to think its still happening. If these people are known to act suspiciously or are on police agendas, more need to be done to sluice the perpetrators out.

Its disgraceful but jacoby's remedy is actually what ISIS and Al Qaeda want. If muslim immigration is halted it sends a message to young muslims already living in the UK and USA that they are second class citizens radicalising them further.



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29 May 2017, 9:58 pm

"That's what they want us to do" is a stupid defense, if you have thousands of jihadists already operating in your country with thousands more waiting to come home from Syria then I think the last thing you should want to do is add more to it which what this open door policy entails. If you are unwilling to assimilate and are completely hostile to western culture then what value does that person have to the UK or anywhere they might be? Cracking down on radical Islam and slowing immigration seem like common sense, the UK is already a small overcrowded Island without enough housing for its people.

Weird how there is no terrorist attacks happen in places like Poland and Japan... What could their secret be?