My thoughts on the English riots.

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Tell them why, though. Tell them how devolution works in the UK. Where not all four countries have their own national parliament to protect them against the worst effects of the austerity cuts imposed by Westminster.

The Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are not in a vastly better position, but their national Parliaments at least provide their people with a buffer against Westminster's mad actions, however small.

England has no parliament of its own. As a result, Westminster imposes more nonsense on England than any other country in the Union. Before anyone trots out the usual guff, Westminster is not an English parliament. It is not even much of a UK Parliament any more. It is a parliament in and of itself, which happens to be sited in England. It tends to look little further than its own doors and cares little about the lives of the people who live beyond them.

(edited for clarity)

Last edited by pratchettfan on 10 Aug 2011, 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Not so jolly a place topic

Shame the way things have turned out in the Motherland. Canada is set up for inclusion and has for a very long time. This is why there are little if any race riots (Montreal has had some recent trouble) and our neighbourhoods are not segregated, leading to bitterness, class distinctions and economic problems. The UK and Europe were not set up for immigration. Better to come to North America where there are more opportunities and room to grow.

Europe is like a museum--nice to visit (if I had money) but I would not want to live there.

I would not want to live anywhere else but Europe. I think England could be one the greatest places on earth in which to live. At the moment, it simply isn't. A an awful lot of the reasons why can be planted at the feet of politicians who walk Westminster's corridors. Westminster has, unlike almost all other parliaments in Europe, remained mostly unchanged for centuries. In my opinion, it is no longer fit for purpose.

I don't really agree with much of what you say, but yes, devolution has turned out to be an enormously expensive mess and deleterious to the Union and, in my view, the future of the UK as a whole. I am an integrationist unionist that wants Westminster to be the sovereign power, not Brussels and for all national pretend parliaments to be abolished. The other countries in the UK don't like it? Fine. Vote for independence (or in Ulster's case, a UI).

Your idea effectively turns back the clock and would plunge everyone back under Westminster's yoke. You'd happily do that to people?

I don't want to be under the yoke of a parliament of 650 elected and over 740 unelected politicians at Westminster who appear to have no other talent than causing ruin. I wonder if most of the world knows that one chamber of the UK parliament is still, after countless reforms, almost wholly unaccountable to the people.

I want more devolution, not less. An English Parliament would pose the biggest threat to Westminster since Guy Fawkes (which is why we do not have such a parliament). An English parliament, sited far from London and run in new ways would challenge the stranglehold those from the Eton-mafia, PR men, former activists from all sides (left and right), professional politicians and those who put party interests long before country, have on Westminster.

Yup. I would. With lots of local democracy too, though, through councils and that - ultimately down to the citizen.

mhmm, society is screwed.

some lady was telling me today that she has seen this coming for ages and there will be much worse to come. she kept repeating 'it's just the start' and 'tip of the iceburg'. creepered me right out.

I don't think this has anything to do with devolution. The fact is that Scotland, and the other parts of the UK have always had distinct identities which devolution finally recognised and has allowed to develop. Scotland has a completely different cultural make-up and identity to England and we seem to be less given to these kinds of riots.

There are many areas of Scotland which are poverty-stricken, where there are no jobs, no prospects, low life expectancy, complex social problems and high crime rates, 3 generations unemployed and so on. But these people aren't rioting. There is a difference between Scotland and England which goes deeper than devolution.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The fact that so many English people have used the terms England/UK/Britain interchangeably for so long has meant that there isn't the same kind of national identity that we have in Scotland. You were in charge for so long that you just assumed that your identity was shared with us. It wasn't and isn't.

It's maybe not very nice of us this side of the border, but there is definately an aspect of us sitting back and watching you making arses of yourselves - again. That seems to encourage our own naturally violent and criminal elements of society not to do this.

Don't make that assumption for me.



We do that when Scots resort to halfwitted religious bigotry and sectarian chanting.

I wasn't making any assumptions for you personally or any individual English person. In this context it's a convention that "you" plural and referring to "the English" generally.

Sectarianism is a blight on our society, I agree.

Btw, you were the one who was wanting me or Keeno to say why Scotland was free of this type of rioting. Don't get peevish because I don't share your perspective on it.

My perspective on what? Why England needs its own parliament (which has everything to do with proper devolution)? Or why unfair policies applied solely to England and thrust upon us by Westminster (a UK Parliament) might go some small way to explain why riots are taking place here? If devolution has shown us anything, it is that three out of the four countries can stand up to Westminster's madness and offer their own people some small protection. Only the English have no such protection against Westminster. Is that peevish of me? Or was it pointing out that corrosive religious bigotry is as much a blight on your society as these riots are on ours?

I think that's true. I spent a week in Edinburgh last year and there is an overwhelming sense of patriotism about the city. The Lothian buses all have a tartan pattern on the seats and the Royal Mile is filled with nothing but kilt shops. Wherever you go, you always know that you're in Scotland.

It doesn't really make sense, though, does it, really? All it will give us is yet another crop of career politicians, something we really have more than enough problems with already.

No; leave the EU; scrap the 'national' parliament and have a united parliament in Westminster for all issues that cannot be resolved locally. So only things like currency, defence, crime and punishment, i.e. really need to be dealt with at the Union level - most other things can be dealt with via councils and direct democracy.

Nonsense. The usual horsesh*t argument aimed at keeping things just as they are or, in your case, turning back the clock to the detriment of everyone in all four countries.

Unlike you, I see no future for the Union and prefer complete independence. Failing that, I'd like a federal system where we each decide most of our own affairs and Westminster is not dominant.

I don't know the best solution. I just know that Westminster is no solution to anything. It is the cause of too much of our ruin.

There are nine regions of England. If we held elections for a national parliament on a regional basis - rather than a constituency one - with 11-22 for each region and a few extra for London, it would mean an English People's Parliament of 100-200. Westminster would have far less to do since the biggest country in the Union would be looking after most of its own affairs. Westminster could be vastly slimmed down. It would no longer need 1400+ in total or the vast number of UK Government offices sited on some of Europe's most expensive land.

But, it's the livelihoods of those 1400 which stand in the way of an English parliament. That and the fact that England is all the worse off for not having an equivalent party to Plaid or the SNP, neither of which (in the main) is over-run with petty racists and Europhobes. A party prepared to set aside the usual nonsense played by the (mostly) boy-men who pursue a political career at Westminster and do what is best for the English people.

As for your EU obsession....Your beloved UKIP, run by an idiot of the first order, would impose a retreat from Europe on behalf of England, where most europhobes live. How is that any more fair on the Scots, Welsh or N Irish than the Germano-Franco alliance you so detest imposing its will on us?

You are going to run headlong in the issue of mobility rights. Every British citizen has the right to live and work in any part of the United Kingdom.

If that mobility right is going to have any meaning, it is essential that certain aspects of the public good conform to basic standards.

The education received in schools in one county must adhere to the same curriculum standards in another, so that school leavers are not disadvantaged when seeking to enter universities or other post-secondary training on the basis of the county in which they were educated.

Standards for fitness of consumer goods must be universal, so that one county cannot attract business through a lax scheme of standards, and then sell its products throughout the UK.

Corporate governance needs to be universal, so that one county cannot set up a lax set of incorporation laws that allow officers directors to evade scrutiny and liability.

Broadcast communitcation and transportation infrastructure needs to conform to standards.

Furthermore there is a need for aggregation. A county with a small population spread over a large area is going to be unable to provide health, education services and transportation and communication at the same cost that the can be provided in London. When these services are provided nationally, rural areas are subsidized, but under the kind of devolution that you propose, tax rates in rural areas would be forced much higher to meet all of the duplication of governance and program administration that would be needed.

Western Corporate governance is based on the North American corporate culture, that and the North American gang culture is what it is f*****g up the UK. So in some respects your continent has had a hand in creating theses riots IMHO.
Theres been too much Americanization of the UK for my own liking.