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skyblue1
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13 Mar 2012, 5:20 pm

I imagine there will be an appeal of the amount awarded

Another reason for Tort reform in the United States


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Apple_in_my_Eye
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13 Mar 2012, 5:20 pm

so_subtly_strange wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I hope that girl never finds out.


she has down syndrome, so this is probably far outside her capacity to understand. you could probably directly tell her and she would not 'find out'.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. A person doesn't need to precisely know how amniocentesis works (hell, I don't even know how it works) to know what a "test" is. And I have heard that people with Down's sure as hell know that they are different and that normal people treat them differently. And also that they tend to read body language and pick up 'vibes' very, very well.

All it would take would be some neighbors or relatives making a slip. I.e. a relative talking with their spouse while the host gets some tea for everybody while the girl is there or in the next room.

"Wow, this is a nice house they've got!"
"Well, it's probably because of their lawsuit money."
"What lawsuit?"
"(hushed)You know... [girl's name]... how the doctors did that test wrong..."

You don't need to be Einstein to piece together a bunch of clues like that over say 20 or 30 years, especially combined with seeing how people say it.
Quote:
the money they obtained really will be helpful in supporting everything they could financially use to care for her, so what does it matter what the terminology is in court, especially it being something she will probably never be able to comprehend, and this not make a negative interpretation of

The terminology reflects the mindset of the parents. The theory of the lawsuit was not to obtain funds for raising a disabled child. Hopefully, the parents will love and accept their daughter and use the money for her benefit. OTOH, maybe their mindset is that they were cheated out of a normal child and so deserve to have fancy cars and lots of luxuries to make up for it. Who knows.

There was someone at a family reunion of mine when I was a kid. It turned out that he was a "bastard" child of one of my aunts, and that at the time (30 years before) it was a big secret. But after 30 years everyone knew and even I as a kid was able to figure it out from snippets of what people said. (No one flat out stated it.)



aghogday
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13 Mar 2012, 8:25 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
so_subtly_strange wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
I hope that girl never finds out.


she has down syndrome, so this is probably far outside her capacity to understand. you could probably directly tell her and she would not 'find out'.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. A person doesn't need to precisely know how amniocentesis works (hell, I don't even know how it works) to know what a "test" is. And I have heard that people with Down's sure as hell know that they are different and that normal people treat them differently. And also that they tend to read body language and pick up 'vibes' very, very well.

All it would take would be some neighbors or relatives making a slip. I.e. a relative talking with their spouse while the host gets some tea for everybody while the girl is there or in the next room.

"Wow, this is a nice house they've got!"
"Well, it's probably because of their lawsuit money."
"What lawsuit?"
"(hushed)You know... [girl's name]... how the doctors did that test wrong..."

You don't need to be Einstein to piece together a bunch of clues like that over say 20 or 30 years, especially combined with seeing how people say it.
Quote:
the money they obtained really will be helpful in supporting everything they could financially use to care for her, so what does it matter what the terminology is in court, especially it being something she will probably never be able to comprehend, and this not make a negative interpretation of

The terminology reflects the mindset of the parents. The theory of the lawsuit was not to obtain funds for raising a disabled child. Hopefully, the parents will love and accept their daughter and use the money for her benefit. OTOH, maybe their mindset is that they were cheated out of a normal child and so deserve to have fancy cars and lots of luxuries to make up for it. Who knows.

There was someone at a family reunion of mine when I was a kid. It turned out that he was a "bastard" child of one of my aunts, and that at the time (30 years before) it was a big secret. But after 30 years everyone knew and even I as a kid was able to figure it out from snippets of what people said. (No one flat out stated it.)


My understanding is that the child has a mild form of Down's syndrome, this may be part of the reason of the difficulties that were associated with diagnosis after birth.

The parents would likely at some point explain the situation to the child, in their terms, rather than the abusive type manner that others might express it in. I would agree, particularly considering that the child has a mild form of down's syndrome, that they might figure this out from other sources, without an explanation from the parents.

The article did state though, that the parents were specifically suing for lifetime care of the child.


Quote:
"It's been difficult for them," the family's lawyer David K. Miller told KATU-TV. "There's been a lot of misinformation out there.

“These are parents who love this little girl very, very much,” Miller said. “Their mission since the beginning was to provide for her and that’s what this is all about.”

The Levy family originally sued for $7 million to cover the costs of care for their daughter over her lifetime


They were awarded 2.9 million dollars for that cause rather than 7 million dollars.

I would think that the courts would require that the money would be put into some kind of trust to ensure that it was used in this manner, along with appropriate documentation to verify it's use in this manner. I can remember similiar cases where this information was detailed, but so far the details of the settlement have not been released in this case.

This is similiar to the legal measures that the Social Security administration uses, to ensure that a guardian of an incapacitated adult documents the funds for the recipients care.

The terminology "wrongful birth", at least from the Wiki article, appears to be how such a case is commonly described in the legal system, as well as "wrongful miscarriage"; it's not something unique to this incident. Both a birth and a miscarriage, can be a result of negligence of a doctor in prenatal care, that does not allow one the choice of the safety of a legal abortion.

The terms sound strange, but without the moral implications, from a legal perspective, they seem to be logical terms.

The local paper where the court case was reported stated that the parents had received death threats. I respect the differences of opinons on the subject, but it is ironic that someone would show illegal intent to murder someone over the legal decision that over 90% of the general public appears to be capable of making, when faced with the reality of such a decision.



techstepgenr8tion
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15 Mar 2012, 9:43 am

$$$$$$$$

We're the most litigious society in the world. Any surprise?


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15 Mar 2012, 1:20 pm

In my opinion, there's no such thing as a wrongful birth. If that couple doesn't want the child, why don't they give it to a couple that does. There are many foster parents who want to adopt special needs children who are trained to do so. Since when was it a crime to have Down Syndrome or another developmental disability. The Holocaust?


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15 Mar 2012, 3:35 pm

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“These are parents who love this little girl very, very much,” Miller said. “Their mission since the beginning was to provide for her and that’s what this is all about.”

If they love her so much, then they should be glad she's born. :evil:


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snpeden
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15 Mar 2012, 3:54 pm

Rhiannon0828 wrote:
It could be that these parents knew that they might not be emotionally or fiscally fit enough to raise a disabled child. That is why they tried so hard to find out if anything was wrong, so that they could terminate their pregnancy. I can understand why they're upset and I think they deserved to sue, especially to get money to help raise this child. Raising a child with a disability takes an enormous emotional and financial toll on the parents, regardless of how happy/ smart/ delightful the child may be. I think if more people were cognizant of their limitations as far as their ability to parent and under what circumstances there would be far fewer abused and murdered children and probably fewer abortions as people who realized that they were not capable of being parents under certain circumstances would choose not to become pregnant. I know that many people on this site are very upset by the idea of potentially disabled children being aborted. But reality is that not all parents, adoptive parents, foster parents, or the system can deal with the demands of raising a disabled child, and some of these "children" will need lifelong care. There are already so many disabled children and adults that are abused or who do not receive proper care. I think that people who want to demonize parents who choose not to give birth to a disabled child need to try to see the bigger picture (kind of funny, I know) and understand that it's not always that these parents don't want "a burden", it's that they know that they are not capable of taking on that kind of responsibility.


My thoughts exactly. It is your (general you) perogative to be upset by this or to think whatever you think about it. But they have a right to whatever kind of life they choose. Maybe they couldn't care for the child, maybe they didn't want to. The fact is, testing is available and those tests went wrong, and it is the responsibility of the doctor in question to make right the mistakes caused by his/her negligence.
If you were having triplets and a doctor told you that there was just one baby in there, you'd be PISSED when you found out it wasn't the case.
Not because you wouldn't love them, but possibly you had not prepared at all and maybe didn't even have the kind of money it took to raise three kids. It could be anything, but the tests exist so that parents can be prepared.
The doctors told them they were prepared, and when you make statements like that you have to take responsibility if you're wrong.



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15 Mar 2012, 5:01 pm

Rhiannon0828 wrote:
It could be that these parents knew that they might not be emotionally or fiscally fit enough to raise a disabled child. That is why they tried so hard to find out if anything was wrong, so that they could terminate their pregnancy. I can understand why they're upset and I think they deserved to sue, especially to get money to help raise this child. Raising a child with a disability takes an enormous emotional and financial toll on the parents, regardless of how happy/ smart/ delightful the child may be. I think if more people were cognizant of their limitations as far as their ability to parent and under what circumstances there would be far fewer abused and murdered children and probably fewer abortions as people who realized that they were not capable of being parents under certain circumstances would choose not to become pregnant. I know that many people on this site are very upset by the idea of potentially disabled children being aborted. But reality is that not all parents, adoptive parents, foster parents, or the system can deal with the demands of raising a disabled child, and some of these "children" will need lifelong care. There are already so many disabled children and adults that are abused or who do not receive proper care. I think that people who want to demonize parents who choose not to give birth to a disabled child need to try to see the bigger picture (kind of funny, I know) and understand that it's not always that these parents don't want "a burden", it's that they know that they are not capable of taking on that kind of responsibility.



I never saw it like that. Thanks. Now I will try next time to remember this if I hear a parent say they will abort their child if it has a disability or if they knew ahead of time. But I also figured they were maybe doing it for the money so they can support their child and the only way to win is to claim they would have aborted her if they knew.

Then there are people out there that say people that can't care for a disabled child shouldn't have kids but that is like saying no one should have kids. There are rare conditions out there and should everyone prepare for those too because they could roll the dice?



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15 Mar 2012, 5:21 pm

Their motivations aren't the issue here.
In any other situation, if a doctor assured a patient of something after doing a/some tests, and it turned out that the doctor was wrong, that would be a problem. If the patient had made any significant decisions based on the doctor's (wrong) advice, most people would expect them to hold the doctor responsible for basically lying to them. Those are the relevant points, and discussing the rest of this is pretty much none of our business.



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16 Mar 2012, 8:41 am

This is really sad! They say they "Love their child very, very much" And yet at the same time they sue on the basis that if they knew she would have down syndrome they would have aborted!? So you love her but basically say she shouldn't be born!?

If it's that bad of a thing to have a child with down syndrome I would like to introduce you to a thing called ADOPTION. (And if they have a problem with adoption then shouldn't they also have a problem with abortion!? The latter is killing the kid whilst the first option can result in a happy life!)


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16 Mar 2012, 12:14 pm

visagrunt wrote:
To me, the legal calculus is pretty clear:

1) The doctor erred.
2) The doctor gave the parents incorrect advice based on erroneous findings.
3) The parents relied upon that advice and took decisions accordingly.

The parents investigated specifically for chromosomal abnormality, and now find themselves faced with a financial obligation as a result of chromosomal abnormality that they were assured was not present. This looks like a slam dunk for liability on the part of the physician and it is precisely the reason that we carry malpractice insurance.

I think that it is pretty careless to start throwing about terms like, "wrongful birth," since it politicizes what should be a strictly judicial decision.

I also think that it is wrong to turn this into an argument about Down's. There are enormous medical-legal ethics questions around screening for Down's and terminating pregnancies as a result. But in this case it is clear that the parents would have had the legal option to abort had the analysis been correctly undertaken and communicated to them. Whether we agree with the termination of these pregnancies are not is secondary to the circumstances of these parents for whom that would have been an option.


^^^ This.

There is too much victim blaming in this thread. I see no reason to blame the parents.



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18 Mar 2012, 3:33 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
In my opinion, there's no such thing as a wrongful birth. If that couple doesn't want the child, why don't they give it to a couple that does. There are many foster parents who want to adopt special needs children who are trained to do so. Since when was it a crime to have Down Syndrome or another developmental disability. The Holocaust?


I agree!


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18 Mar 2012, 3:33 pm

Tollorin wrote:
Quote:
“These are parents who love this little girl very, very much,” Miller said. “Their mission since the beginning was to provide for her and that’s what this is all about.”

If they love her so much, then they should be glad she's born. :evil:


I agree with this also!


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18 Mar 2012, 10:52 pm

Can't raise her??

Don't want to deal with it??

Without passing judgment, there are plenty of people who A) can, and B) would love to.

I believe it is hard. I know there is a lot of misinformation out there.

I've been the victim of enough of it to be painfully well aware of that fact.

Fight the misinformation. Change happens slowly.

I'm not making statements about the rightness or wrongness of genetic testing, or for that matter about the rightness or wrongness of abortion. The world is full of people who think I shouldn't have kids, and that my kids with their faulty genetics shouldn't exist. I think I do a pretty good job and they're pretty cool kids. It's a personal choice and-- unlike some activists and professionals on both sides-- I'm not about to start making it for anyone else.

But-- "Wrongful birth??"

I'm so sorry. That must have been really painful for you. But, you know, I'm a high-functioning autistic, and everyone knows we're incapable of empathizing or of truly caring for another human being (and we can't understand or employ sarcasm, either). So-- f**k you. I don't care. I don't want to hear it.


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19 Mar 2012, 12:39 am

BuyerBeware wrote:
Can't raise her??

Don't want to deal with it??

Without passing judgment, there are plenty of people who A) can, and B) would love to.

I believe it is hard. I know there is a lot of misinformation out there.

I've been the victim of enough of it to be painfully well aware of that fact.

Fight the misinformation. Change happens slowly.

I'm not making statements about the rightness or wrongness of genetic testing, or for that matter about the rightness or wrongness of abortion. The world is full of people who think I shouldn't have kids, and that my kids with their faulty genetics shouldn't exist. I think I do a pretty good job and they're pretty cool kids. It's a personal choice and-- unlike some activists and professionals on both sides-- I'm not about to start making it for anyone else.

But-- "Wrongful birth??"

I'm so sorry. That must have been really painful for you. But, you know, I'm a high-functioning autistic, and everyone knows we're incapable of empathizing or of truly caring for another human being (and we can't understand or employ sarcasm, either). So-- f**k you. I don't care. I don't want to hear it.


Unfortunately, I suspect there are people like that who think either my wife and I shouldn't have been allowed to have had our daughter (who has PDD-NOS), or who think they would somehow make better parents for her.
f**k'em, I say.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



aghogday
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19 Mar 2012, 12:54 am

BuyerBeware wrote:
I'm not making statements about the rightness or wrongness of genetic testing, or for that matter about the rightness or wrongness of abortion. The world is full of people who think I shouldn't have kids, and that my kids with their faulty genetics shouldn't exist. I think I do a pretty good job and they're pretty cool kids. It's a personal choice and-- unlike some activists and professionals on both sides-- I'm not about to start making it for anyone else.

But-- "Wrongful birth??"

I'm so sorry. That must have been really painful for you. But, you know, I'm a high-functioning autistic, and everyone knows we're incapable of empathizing or of truly caring for another human being (and we can't understand or employ sarcasm, either). So-- f**k you. I don't care. I don't want to hear it.


To clarify the legal term:

Wrongful Birth was not a phrase that the parents were able to choose in their lawsuit for medical negligence.

It is a common legal term as it pertains to negligence in prenatal care, by the facility and professionals that provide it.

The negligence of the facility and professionals involved, resulted in the woman not being able to exercise her personal legal choice for an abortion.

The stark reality is that regardless of how one feels about an abortion, over 90% of woman make the same difficult decision that this woman was entitled to make.

Some in the general public have demonized her for her decision, 9 out of 10 women faced with this decision have the same potential to be demonized, if their intent or actions are publicized in the general public when they stand up for their legal right to appropriate medical care that allows them to exercise their legal personal choices in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_birth

Quote:
Wrongful birth is a legal cause of action in some common law countries in which the parents of a congenitally diseased child claim that their doctor failed to properly warn of their risk of conceiving or giving birth to a child with serious genetic or congenital abnormalities.[1] Thus, the plaintiffs claim, the defendant prevented them from making a truly informed decision as to whether or not to have the child. Wrongful birth is a type of medical malpractice tort. It is distinguished from wrongful life, in which the child sues the doctor.


I haven't seen a "wrongful life" case advertised in the media, but it is certain to raise even more ire among the general public if one does reach the media, even though it is still a technical legal term used to describe medical negligence in prenatal care.

If anyone is to blame for the phasing of the term "wrongful birth" it is certainly not the parents fault, it is a result of our legal system.

Interestingly I'm not so sure, that many would have even read the article if is was titled women sues for malpractice in prenatal care, instead of the legal term "wrongful birth".

It might have more likely to have been assumed to be just another one of many malpractice suits in the US, for medical negligence.