WTH? Taxpayer-paid sex changes?
If you're correct that he has no knowledge of what he's talking about, then you really shouldn't be infuriated. If his conclusions are based on a false premise, then of course he's going to come to the wrong conclusion.
I'm not going to defend his exact words, but there is something you appear to have missed about them -- he prefaces his analogies with 'convicted felon' and he put 'at the taxpayers' expense' at the end of each one. I don't think you can know what he thinks about law-abiding transgendered people (such as yourself) just by what he said here.
I think if you should be infuriated by anyone, it should be at the murderer who is cynically manipulating the system and making transgendered people look bad.
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"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
This seems to me to be a valid complaint. The right way to fix it is not "murderers first".
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"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Ignorance, especially from people who claim they are otherwise, infuriates me. I just wonder what the premise was.
Transgenderism is the same condition whether a prisoner has it or a law-abiding citizen. That's why I took it that he must have meant it for all transgender people.
You two seem to think in a similar matter, based on previous posts, so I'm going to trust your analysis.
This person might be manipulating the system, but she might not be. She might truly be transgender. I know that we are supposed to distrust criminals, especially rapists and murders, but I just can't assume guilt. It is not in my nature. I am, however, skeptical.
Now, back on topic, what truly bothers me is how transgenderism is signaled out in the media. Inmates get tons of medical and physical interventions for non-life threatening conditions that would make them more comfortable. What makes transgenderism so special?
I have to say, Ancalagon, that I appreciate your understanding approach and attempt to clarify things. Thank you.
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The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.
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I'm not taking you seriously, anymore. It is obvious you are silly and don't want a discussion. To think I once respected you, but it doesn't matter to you anyway.
The murderer cannot make an income and is dependent on the government so isn't it different.
John_Browning
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At the same time, tough luck taxpayers. If you don't want your taxpayer money to pay for medical care you find "controversial" then don't lock up people for life in a prison where they have no opportunity to make a living to pay for it themselves.
I'm yet to talk to anyone claiming to be transgender who struck me as being fairly stable. In this case, if I had a say in it he would have been executed based on the murder conviction alone. If he didn't want to be in prison for life, he shouldn't have done the crime. Since there is no opportunity to ever have a fulfilling and productive life in prison, there is no justification to provide any elective surgeries until all the other needs of the prison system and society are met.
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud
Dear TechnOteen, I do have concerns regarding 'Inmates get tons of medical and physical interventions for non life-threatening conditions that would make them more comfortable'
I live in California, and there is a severe and ongoing lack of medical, dental, optical, psychiatric care here for incarcerated people.
The situation is always blamed on lack of money.
As for making these people more comfortable, if that means controlling pain from an illness or infection, curing that illness or infection, supplying competent psychiatrists and counsellors, we owe them that. Those are not luxuries.
My personal belief is that someone suffering from a dental abscess or uterine fibroids, for instance, takes precedence over anyone whose transgender issue does not create systemic infection that causes constant physical pain, and which can cause death, ultimately.
To me, it is a matter of financial priority, and, like in Emergency Care, take care of the sickest and most life-threatening condition first.
Sylkat
Transgender, is a real thing, just as intersex is. Not everyone is born male or female, and many do not think of themselves as male or female.
Tradition says, no dong, raise it as a girl. It is a sex role without the sex behavior. while some have nothing we recognize, some have both.
Behavior has been by choice, taking on sex roles, identity, dress, without the ability to have physical sex.
Like Autism, this is obvious to all around, but is easier to hide under a skirt.
I too would have my doubts about someone who just discovered their Autism, after being convicted of murder, given a life sentence.
What stories I have heard of transgender, the person and their family knew it from early childhood.
Somehow, this is not the story of a woman born with male sexual development, that lived as a woman from childhood. History has many cases of males or females living as the other sex, and passing for life. Scientific publication, cracked.com, has articles.
The ability of medical transexual full transformation is recent, MTF, and something like making a blow up doll. Not a transplant of the full female organs that would self supply hormones, and perhaps children?
It requires a lifetime of hormone treatments, and is closer to those asian girls that have their eyes enlarged, lips, chins, noses reduced, so they can look like anima characters. Or perhaps those who get full body tattoos, horn implants, elf ears, split tongues, and other cosmetic transformations.
Then comes what I think a natural intersex space. As an employer I am required to be non sexual by law, and as a person, by choice. I have shown a lifetime lack of interest in doing a sexual dance with everyone who comes along, reserving that for a select few, and considering the over sexualization of culture to something recent, marketing based, broad spectrum hedonistic acting out. I will go for a bit of that, but not all the time, in all directions, with everything around.
One of the traditional values of prison was denying inmates sex. As punishment. Transforming one prisoner into a female, even willingly, would lead to having to keep them in solitary confinement.
We are talking about murders doing life, Ripley, Aliens II, those kind of guys. Like the guy just convicted of killing his second wife back, with his most recent missing, and I think a first one he said run off with a truck driver, and maybe four hookers down by the docks over the last six years, and other women have vanished, so finally a jury convicts, sends him away for life. A whole building of these guys.
Just by random numbers, a building full of men who have killed several women apiece.
Becoming a woman there is grounds to leave. The choices are life in solitary confinement, cruel and unusual, transfer to a women's prison, if transexual has that legal status, or to a Mental Hospital where Doctors are easier to con than Federal Judges, much easier than that Parole Board, who believes life means life.
Charlie never killed anyone, but the whole Manson family is denied parole.
Since one of the main features of prison is single sex, denial of sex seems equal and much cheaper to just leave the lifer a man, who is free to have what ever brain wiring includes being a mental transexual and murderer.
Having the physical features of a blowup sex doll, will change nothing, Hormone treatment is something he never had, and does not need, as he claims to be female already.
Not to be uncaring, but I am, this is just a killer doing life looking for a way to get transferred to a Mental Hospital, with better chances of release, excape, or at least getting to kill some more women.
As The State, I would rather spend the money on taking this to a higher court. The Plaintiff claims to be a woman. If so, she was convicted and sent to prison for life for murder, while wearing the body of a man, and that life sentence should be served as convicted. We cannot punish the mind, alter the body, we can only confine the body that was convicted.
My other question would be, if during a period of freedom there had been a sex change operation, hormone treatment, then murder and conviction, where would the prisoner serve their sentence?
Sex change is cosmetic, the DNA is still male. Would hormone treatment continue at public expense?
Transgenderism is something that not everyone knows much about. If you let that get you mad every time you see it, then you'll end up being angry a lot.
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"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
Okay then, the bottom line, because I know I've miffed off a lot of people, and maybe they deserve an explanation.
I am thoroughly pissed at the injustice of a convicted felon receiving what amounts to elective cosmetic surgery at taxpayers' expense, when I can not convince my paid insurance carrier to cover the costs of the corrective surgery that I personally need to restore full function and capability to my left hand ("Sorry Mr. Fnord, what you want is elective surgery, which we do not cover"). He wants to look like a woman, while I just want to be able to use both hands to dress myself, do my work, and caress my wife. This is NOT justice, this is a travesty!
Why should a useless criminal get any more consideration for what he wants than a useful citizen gets for what he needs? He is a criminal for dog's sake! Whether he looks like a man or a woman, he is still an effing criminal!
So "WAAH EFFING WAAH" for that parasite; may he rot and die in prison.
_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.
If a convicted felon feels that she should have her arms surgically altered to resemble eagle's wings because she feels that she is a bird born in a human body, should she have the surgery performed at the taxpayers' expense?
Reductio ad Absurdium strikes again!
Based on these ridiculous and out-of-bound analogies, it is obvious you have no respect, empathy, nor knowledge of the plights that transgender people go through. This infuriates me as a person with transgenderism that our real pain and suffering are seen as simple delusions and child's play.
People who feel like they need penile enlargement surgery to "be a man" or surgeries to be another species are isolated incidents where the little to no evidence exists of a non-mental cause. Transgenderism is an almost universal condition that strikes every culture, nation, creed, religion, and race. And just a little bit of research into the topic has revealed there are physical/physiological reasons that transgenderism exists (brain structure difference, etc). There is no comparison.
In summary: Comparing odd anecdotes and examples against a condition that has tons of medical evidence for existing is a leap of logic, don't you think? Has the "changing into a bird" example really happened? Requesting a sex change in prison has happened many times.
Whether the taxpayer's need to pay for this surgery (or any type of expensive, controversial, and intrusive medical care) is another question. But by trying to make transgenderism seem like something ridiculous and unnecessary only tells me you don't have really good reasons for defending your point. And so you try to take transgenderism medically illegitimate.
At the same time, I have a small, and very possibly misplaced suspicion, that this person might claim having transgenderism to try to distance herself from the crime. Trying to make herself "seem like a new person". I really hope that's not the case.
Actually I agree with Fnord on this one, I don't really give a damn how this individual feels about their gender identity.
In case everyone has forgotten, this individual is a convicted murderer, not someone convicted of a nonviolent crime.
I am thoroughly pissed at the injustice of a convicted felon receiving what amounts to elective cosmetic surgery at taxpayers' expense, when I can not convince my paid insurance carrier to cover the costs of the corrective surgery that I personally need to restore full function and capability to my left hand ("Sorry Mr. Fnord, what you want is elective surgery, which we do not cover"). He wants to look like a woman, while I just want to be able to use both hands to dress myself, do my work, and caress my wife. This is NOT justice, this is a travesty!
Why should a useless criminal get any more consideration for what he wants than a useful citizen gets for what he needs? He is a criminal for dog's sake! Whether he looks like a man or a woman, he is still an effing criminal!
So "WAAH EFFING WAAH" for that parasite; may he rot and die in prison.
And you are rightly and justifiably pissed. But the injustice is not that a prisoner received something to which she was entitled--the injustice is that you did not receive that to which you ought to have been entitled. For better or for worse, you live in a system in which government attends only to the medical needs of those for whom no one has a commercial interest to provide care.
When government is accountable for providing health care to prisoners--and who else will? Then government must be responsive to all of the bona fide medical needs of those prisoners. While you might consider sex reassignment surgery to be cosmetic and elective, that is not the opinion of the vast majority of the medical and psyhcological community. I will grant you that many of us have a personal interest in delivering services to patients, but even so, I believe the professional concensus is still a reasonable one.
The question is not why a criminal should get more consideration--the question is why a citizen at liberty should get less. I respect your anger, but I do not respect the conclusions that it has led you to.
_________________
--James
John_Browning
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I am thoroughly pissed at the injustice of a convicted felon receiving what amounts to elective cosmetic surgery at taxpayers' expense, when I can not convince my paid insurance carrier to cover the costs of the corrective surgery that I personally need to restore full function and capability to my left hand ("Sorry Mr. Fnord, what you want is elective surgery, which we do not cover"). He wants to look like a woman, while I just want to be able to use both hands to dress myself, do my work, and caress my wife. This is NOT justice, this is a travesty!
Why should a useless criminal get any more consideration for what he wants than a useful citizen gets for what he needs? He is a criminal for dog's sake! Whether he looks like a man or a woman, he is still an effing criminal!
So "WAAH EFFING WAAH" for that parasite; may he rot and die in prison.
And you are rightly and justifiably pissed. But the injustice is not that a prisoner received something to which she was entitled--the injustice is that you did not receive that to which you ought to have been entitled. For better or for worse, you live in a system in which government attends only to the medical needs of those for whom no one has a commercial interest to provide care.
When government is accountable for providing health care to prisoners--and who else will? Then government must be responsive to all of the bona fide medical needs of those prisoners. While you might consider sex reassignment surgery to be cosmetic and elective, that is not the opinion of the vast majority of the medical and psyhcological community. I will grant you that many of us have a personal interest in delivering services to patients, but even so, I believe the professional concensus is still a reasonable one.
The question is not why a criminal should get more consideration--the question is why a citizen at liberty should get less. I respect your anger, but I do not respect the conclusions that it has led you to.
People already are going to jail for treatment for other ailments, what would destroy the incentive for transgender people to the same, and as a matter of triage, why aren't those resources going to uninsured people that need organ transplants? Let people get whatever surgery they want on their own time and money. If someone is never getting out of jail in their lifetime, the amount of mental health treatment is somewhat diminished. I don't see why they couldn't volunteer for some high risk experiment though. Perhaps this dude should just inquire about lobotomizing his sex drive? Developing that procedure would actually serve an economically justifiable constructive purpose!
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud
And you have, in one sentence fragment, demonstrated what is wrong with your society. You are the only developed nation on earth that is unwilling to tax its citizens to a level appropriate to ensure medically necessary care, free at the point of delivery, for each and every person.
If the mantra is, "let people get whatever surgery they want on their own time and money," then someone could easily say the same thing about your hand. Ah, but you consider repair to your hand medically necessary--so the mantra has changed. Now it must be, "let people get whatever unnecessary surgery they want on their own time and money." And here is where you hit the wall of unreason. You suppose that sex reassignment surgery is unnecessary. But your opinion does not correspond with the best medical and psychological information out there.
So why aren't those resources going to uninsured peopel that need organ transplants? Because you, and people who think like you, are too cheap to pay for an honest, fair system that will guarantee everybody the medical care to which they are entitled as citizens of the wealthiest nation on earth.
You have very good reasons to hold the political beliefs that you do--but at least have the integrity to recognize the consequences of those beliefs.
_________________
--James
John_Browning
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,456
Location: The shooting range
And you have, in one sentence fragment, demonstrated what is wrong with your society. You are the only developed nation on earth that is unwilling to tax its citizens to a level appropriate to ensure medically necessary care, free at the point of delivery, for each and every person.
If the mantra is, "let people get whatever surgery they want on their own time and money," then someone could easily say the same thing about your hand. Ah, but you consider repair to your hand medically necessary--so the mantra has changed. Now it must be, "let people get whatever unnecessary surgery they want on their own time and money." And here is where you hit the wall of unreason. You suppose that sex reassignment surgery is unnecessary. But your opinion does not correspond with the best medical and psychological information out there.
So why aren't those resources going to uninsured peopel that need organ transplants? Because you, and people who think like you, are too cheap to pay for an honest, fair system that will guarantee everybody the medical care to which they are entitled as citizens of the wealthiest nation on earth.
You have very good reasons to hold the political beliefs that you do--but at least have the integrity to recognize the consequences of those beliefs.
I'll admit the health system needs work (what that looks like is extremely debatable), but even then, sex changes to not fit into that system; Neither does other cosmetic surgeries, and neither does viagra.
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud
Neither does anything other than 1200-2000 calories per day, a cot to sleep on at night, and basic medical care. No TV, no conjugal visits (no visitors at all!), no Internet, no cell phones ... no outside contact, except with their lawyers. Just lock 'em in cages, hose them down once a day, feed them, and check to see if they've committed suicide yet.
They're CRIMINALS, for dog's sake!
