So the economy is failing.

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When did I ever say that everyone there had it so great? I said that if you are in the bottom quintile in the United States, you are still a lot better off that most of the population of the world. And that is not an inconsiderable issue.

Do not confuse unfair division of income with an unsound economy. You have got an appalling gap between rich and poor. But all that wealth that is aggregating to the rich is still the product of your economy and it is within the power of your electorate to effect change.

I see no prospect for economic collapse. What I think is far more likely is upheaval as a result of natural disaster. But your thread is premised on the idea that it is the economy that is collapsing. But my question is why discuss the impact of an event that is not going to happen?

Yes that could be to......I guess I was a little to specific as to what seemed to be the best theory to me, without including other possibilities. Also you cannot say for sure it wont happen anymore than I can say for sure that it will...so that question is flawed.

Which is fair comment. But given the billions of people who are living in poverty, with no access to clean water or sufficient food--let alone sustainable employment, education, even the most basic of emergency health care or any number of other necessities of life, I think it is a very hard argument to say that the poorest of Americans are as bad off as the truly destitute of the world.



I agree, the unfair division of wealth cannot go on much longer. But I look at the number of people who are ridiculing the notion that tax cuts for the wealthy will effect positive change and I take heart that the electorate will refuse to be hoodwinked. And once the electorate starts to shift, then political parties that fail to respond will be punished accordingly. You are due for another paradigm shift, and I believe it is coming faster than anyone expects.



This is most assuredly so. I am glad that we have found a meeting of the minds at last.

You should read Appian's history of the Civil Wars.

Governments dominated by corrupt, short sighted plutocrats don't change willingly or easily.

I'm not suggesting that revolution is near, but I don't think there will be any meaningful reform without some sort of violence and civil unrest.

The US has been here before.

Before the end of the guilded age they were killing presidents, blowing up banks on Wall St. and having urban riots.

Well, first off, you can't live on just growing your own food, you need money. Even if the currency is debased, it will still be in use, enforced by the army if they have to, so we need to figure out ways of earning a living that don't involve SSI. You may want to read Fernando Aguirre's blog at themodernsurvivalist.com, he is from Argentina and tells what happens when society collapses. It isn't romantic at all, the brave survivalist fighting the zombie hordes, forget about that, it's more insidious. Crime goes way up, and smart people turn to crime since it's the only way of making a living, so the middle class and rich basically have KILL ME signs on their backs, anybody who has a life above shantytown living is a target. Read some of the stories he has about criminals taking advantage of people letting their guard down for even a split second. NTs have a need for social interaction, and the criminals exploit that, waiting for somebody to talk with their gf at the front door then forcing them inside, etc. I think aspies would do better than NTs in that situation, since we don't have friends that can be exploited to gain access to us. The hypervigilance that comes with ADHD can be a benefit too. Or we could be like the USSR in that pensions are still paid but they buy a single loaf of bread. But I think that what happens in the US will be totally different than anything that has happened before, Argentina and Russia got bailed out by the West, there will be nobody to bail US out. It may be more like the fall of Rome with some Argentina mixed in. As cities become increasingly unlivable, people will go back to the land, since that's where the food comes from.

Yeah since its likely when this happens it will be a long time before anything can even hope to recover....hence the reason it would be wise to learn how to live in the wilderness because there isn't going to be anyone to save our asses. humans have done it in the past so its not impossible....but this is all hypothetical anyways I suppose since no one can say for sure what exactly will happen.

The Robbers are going to fix everything, if we just give them some time?

They did, faced with paying Social Security, the War Babies became suddenly unemployed, so they could be paid less, and the government was run into debt so what did get paid would be worth a lot less.

When George Bush took office oil was $13, he fixed that.

I am sure the Wall Street China Axis will make out just fine, with some tax cuts.

The rest of us not so good, unable to survive on Social Security, and seeking a life not living on the streets, begging for handouts.

As the OP mentioned, perhaps we need to think about a new lifestyle, as we do have a lot of cheap land, and perhaps the New American Dream has an acre and a garden.

There was someone on the web a while back that pointed out few had enough to retire, working till you drop would not be an option due to jobs leaving, and what was needed was a New Hooverville Plan.

Very cheap housing, self produced food, for an aging group of non consumers, who could not even afford the cheapest apartment. We have about 40 million in that demographic.

Waiting for the Government Plan, it is wait till they are all dead, and spend the money on Health Care and Drugs, where they have Friends of Government.

Employment on the best projection, getting back to 5% by 2020, and many cannot wait for that bus. Other say 5% calls for war, plague, or something, because we have been reducing jobs and increasing people, and now it is what it is.

For Health, Sanity, people would be better off tending their own garden, maintaining their own sense of self worth, which is a broad idea now.

The idea that street rabble begging their betters for a crust of bread, would be entertaining, ends when the rocks start flying.

I am with OP, avoid all that, turn a camping trip into a new life, Homesteading with Broadband. I have a large tent, and have figured out that with a paper mache coating, city dump plus Elmeers waterproof glue, I could put up a cottage that would last years in any climate, Heat, cooking, hot water, a propane bottle is cheap.

Land, water, air, we can live well.

We can do it, or wait for FEMA Camps, armed guards, and having no rights.

In Texas, it may be a few acres, but it is The Sacred Ranch, and closed to everything, that does not have a Warrent. The Freehold is still part of our culture. It is happening, small gardens springing up everywhere, starting other gardens, that sell food to some, others work for it, and no one gos hungry.

Goggle The Barefoot Farmer, he started a small farm, five to eight acres, and now is helping start others around Nashville. People prepay for being able to have fresh, organic, local food, cheap, and demand exceeds supply.

It does not take a revolt to leave them behind, and produce a better local product. Cutting out all of the middle men, like having people come harvest their own, it becomes better, cheaper, and a day in the country. It builds local networks.

For a lot of people, old, young, disabled, it is better than what they do not have and never will. Spending $40,000 to make $50,000 is not as much fun as owning your land, and making $10,000 you can keep.

Social Security is about $10,000 a year, and in the right place, it can be wealth.

The forty acre family farm that was abandoned a generation ago, can now be village that is self supporting.

YOU didn't say it would be romantic, but if you get deeper into survivalism you'll find plenty of romanticists, who think that life without the Evil Govt will be wine and roses for THEM of course. The fact is, life was nasty brutish and short for 99.9% of human history. We are simply getting back to the norm. If you have a place where you can live off the land, get there NOW and beat the rush. You may want to research Christopher McCandless, who attempted to live in the wild without training and lived for three months. Living in the wild is not easy. Most areas don't have a lot of animals to hunt. "Rabbit starvation", where you use more calories surviving than you manage to take in, is a real threat. I don't know where you live, but if you have somebody who owns land in the mountains, go there, but not before learning survival skills. That's why I suggested survivalistboards.com. I meant that money won't completely disappear, and you will need to buy something every so often. That's why you need money. It's possible that things could get so bad that even gold is worthless, and if that happened it would be another Dark Age. In that case people would only live to be 35 and spend most of their time hunting and foraging.

Personal survival does not mean reverting to hunter gatherers. Not when an acre of grain will feed you and some chickens and rabbits.

It just means redirecting your labor to your personal use.

I shop Goodwill, buy function over fashion, and effort in a garden, will produce more calories than invested.

A personal base of life survival might cost as much as a car, but will increase in value, will pay you to own it, Owning your own life, is worth the effort.

It is just a matter of changing goals. Last generation it was the suburban commuter, this time the semi rural, once a week to town, the farmers market, trading what you produce for what you need, then back to your own Freehold.

This pattern of converging in cities is the factory system, working for wages. Before that few lived in town, most were small farmers, self supporting, and produced extra for a cash economy. It was not Paleolithic hand to mouth.

Land was considered the basic wealth, and those who had it used it. Besides that, shingles and barrel staves paid better than firewood, some value added, labor, and some even made the barrels, filled them, and whiskey was always a cash crop. Pickles work to.

New Orleans was built on Barge Boards, lumber cut in Ohio, made into barges, floated down the river loaded with wheat, which does not grow here, which was sold, then the barges taken apart and the lumber sold.

Human labor was turned directly into wealth, without banks and tax collectors.

Life was hard, but they were not eating roots and twigs, a few acres could raise food, chickens, cows, pigs, so the corn crib and smokehouse were full. They still had time to grow a few acres of grain, cut trees, saw planks, build barges, and often convert the grain into barrels of whiskey.

Cheap food did give some advantage to cheap suburban houses, and cash employment as a factory hand in cities. Food is no longer cheap, nor are houses, and the factories left.

I have a tweed jacket, one man raised the sheep, sheared them, washed and carded the wool, spun the thread, wove the cloth, and cut the jacket. The label shows him sitting before his little stone cottage weaving.

These Cottage Crofters are the highest priced tweeds on the market.

Others knit socks, and are backordered for years.

The oldest record of a Herringbone Tweed is impressed in clay that was then thrown in a fire and preserved, 35,000 years ago. It is an established trade.

The personal economy is the most developed, has stood the test of time, which most have not, has outlasted Empires, and has never gone away.

There is a man north of me has a small place, about five acres. He grows Blueberries, has a large wooden fermentation tank. crushers, filters, bottling, labels, and he makes one shipping container of wine a year.

Someone in Japan buys the container. He does very well on five acres, he also has a job, and makes wine on the side. Wine I hear, pays several times his job. He bought a few bushes, made lots of cuttings, had to live somewhere, it took ten years, investing his labor, now he is set for life.

The Government will not send the Delta Force to hunt you down and splatter your blood and guts all over. Nor will you have to live naked on all fours and feed from grass and bushes.

Cities will continue to decline, but almost all of that will stay within city limits, and weekend mornings at the farmers market will be safe.

While things failing seem fast in history, a closer look shows decline spread over forty to a hundred years. That is plenty of time to develop the next model.

Also the premise of this thread is more of a dark age in which money would be irrelevent, I am not talking things get a bit chaotic but things are mostly still intact I am talking about a full on complete collapse. So yeah money wont do anyone any good, and well gold is pretty useless for survival......since its such a soft metal and thus wouldn't make very good weapons.

And just how long with the Survivalist Republic last? If this country really collapses and we revert to pre 1820 modes of living rest assured over 90 percent of the population will perish within two years. Without a critical mass of skills and techniques at hand, it will take at least two generations to get back to where we were at the turn of the 20 th century. Probably even longer.

However tacky and corrupt our economy and society are it is better to keep it running than to let it go to wreck and ruin.

ruveyn

The Capitalist System is based on an ever expanding pool of consumers, cheaper means of production, and keeping wages down.

China might have seemed good, but it took the profit out of the system. It also took the consumers out of the American market, and the Chinese can buy it for less. Windows 7, $6.

I do not think it will fall apart over night, just more of the same, 40 years of declining wages, inflating money, and I see the Iraq invasion just like Bush Bucks, doing something to prod a dying economy.

Our record debt is a measure of how not working it is.

Our record unemployment is the same.

A declining real estate market is unheard of, maybe it took a dip in the 30s, but it has been rising over 200 years.

Endless QE bumped the market for about a month. Stock prices did go up, as money went down, so did oil, grain, and while it is not quite, add another zero to all bills, gold and silver are selling for five times what they did a few years ago. Oil is seven times, so we are well on our way to turning dollars to dimes, in a decade.

This is not recent, government and capitalism are Ponzis. The expanding war babies of 1960 did not have jobs available, it was hard to keep their parents employed. At least our money was Silver. $1.29 an ounce.

So we had to do something about Vietnamese drinking in boats and driving without a license, so we killed 3,000,000.

No one wanted to pay for it, except the 69,000 americans who died there. Except for the 18% interest rates and the hundred percent devaluation of money. Ten paper dollars would buy a silver dollar.

On a fair curve, even with the Hunts driving it to $50, silver is now $30, and rising. A dollar is 3 Cents of a 1960 silver dollar.

The costs of the Vietnam Freedom Fries hit in the decade after the war,

We had almost regained some Honor, but still were the neighborhood bully to the south.

Interest rates will go up, It comes with inflation, and at 5-6%, the existing debt will cost a Trillion a year, a third of government income.

As they are spending a Trillion more than income, adding two trillion a year to the debt doubles it in seven years. 2020, and $32 Trillion in debt.

As Warren Buffet says, get something, go up the mountain and make a snowball, slowly roll it down hill, then it grows and gets faster and faster. It makes sense for an investor,but turns a debtor into a slave.

Sometime between 2020 and 2030, interest on the National Debt will equal Gross National Product.

Planet population will near double, and they will demand to be paid in food. It is not the kind of debt you can default on, without starting a war.

Ya, Ya, The Titanic is the greatest ship ever built, with the best captian, but my feet are wet.

The airplane of capitalism has stalled out, the engines flamed out, and it is in a flat spin, as we make our way towards an early landing. Ladies and gentlemen, please remain seated until we are on the ground!

So it would be a good idea to have a few acres planted in cabbage, potatoes, carrots, and some rabbit traps.

I agree that the population will perish from any disruption, 1570 after Katrina, while waiting for aid. Waiting for aid does not work. I got out but was unprepared. Now I have a tent, sleeping bag, pack, mess kit, boots, extra jeans, hats, outdoor coat, six weeks seemed forever. The grocery stores did open, money still worked, the power came back on.

Having a place picked to bug out to makes sense. There are National Forests, I need a crossbow.

Having a few acres plowed, manured, plant cover crops to turn in, Rye, Chick Peas, get your five gallon can of heritage seeds, and you will be feeding rabbits.

Most people are going to stand around and complain till they die.

There will be times to head for the hills, and having some supplies burried out there, having made some weekend and short runs, stocking up, learning the lay of the land, being seen by locals, and learning campcraft.

I have a Dutch Oven, cast iron, makes a gallon of chile and then pour in the cornbread batter and bake some more. One pot could feed me for a week.

It does take water, and a place to hide my fire. I would rather have ownership, a cabin, and defend rather than hide.

Most people would be better off in small groups.

Mad max style.

When the economy of the Weimar Republic "flamed out" and their money became worthless, they did not revert to a stone age economy at all. The gangsters took over, organized industry and for a short while Germany became hyper productive again, that is until the bombs started to fall.

Even after the war, Germany was rescued and never sank into pre-industrial barbarism.

ruveyn

I doubt there will be a complete collapse. When things get bad enough that large amounts of people are really suffering politicians will have to do something to prevent an all out class war.

In order for an economy to continue, people need to buy things, so that the people who make things can continue making them. It's called supply and demand, and here's the problem. You acknowledge that the wealthy are much wealthier than ever before, right? Okay, so then that means the poor are also poorer than before, and so is everybody else who isn't "wealthy." Well, those are the people who buy the stuff that gets made. When they have less and less money, they end up only affording their basic necessities(if they can even afford that), or they buy a hell of a lot fewer non-necessities. In turn, the company that makes non-necessities gets less money, so they either have to stop making as much, get rid of workers to keep profit margins, or both. So then MORE people lose jobs, leaving MORE people with no money, which means LESS people buying things. It's a snowball effect. So what sustains the economy when it gets bad enough? They clearly don't give a s**t about us. I mean, they gave the goddamn BANKS and AUTO COMPANIES, who f****d up, billions of dollars, but we got nothing. So, it's not like they're gonna just give us a bunch of money to be able to buy stuff. They don't care.