Heat Wave In SW Could Be Worst Ever
Tollorin
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Fnord, maybe a year ago my Scottish, and science type, sent me some articles on how a school in Britain had tried to shut down debate on global warming. This is hardly the way responsible scientists behave; it's religious zealotry masquerading as science. In science, if one is right it's not because he squelches evidence, but because the evidence supports his contentions. That's not the case here.
Having said this, I'm not going to deny global warming, but only stipulate that the case hasn't been made.
There is more that enough evidences that support that the earth climate is warming, and the most scientific attitude is to say that global warming is more that likelly true.
Gross Exaggeration. Study what the climate was during the Medieval Warming period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period
There were vinyards in England and they were growing oats and barley in Greenland.
The Climate Alarmists very conveniently pretend there is no history.
ruveyn
There is no deny of history in climate science, and history of climate is studied a lot.
Thelibrarian
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"There is more that enough evidences that support that the earth climate is warming, and the most scientific attitude is to say that global warming is more that likelly true."
This has hardly been a fair contest though since opposing viewpoints have been silenced with the same zeal as a Medieval inquisitor silencing the heretic. So, as far as I'm concerned, the matter is still not settled. Science is about the best argument winning, not being able to silence one's opponents.
It is not like we have a real baseline to measure from, coming out of an ice age, which was proceeded by the warmest period in recent times, sea level 21 foot higher, Florida a reef. The following ice age, sea level 440 foot lower. Recent, last few hundred years, sea level rising a foot in a hundred years.
We still have not broken the 1930s records, much less 1913. We may be in a period as hot as the 1950s.
Everyone should panic and send your money to Inventor@WrongPlanet.
Inventor, is it accurate to state that there has been a drop in usable rainfall/snowfall in some US regions over the past few years? I've read a few things about that, but you're more in depth on that subject that I am.
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And it has been 106 F in your neck of the woods before.
ruveyn
Thelibrarian
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And it has been 106 F in your neck of the woods before.
ruveyn
Yes, it's been above 106 here. In fact, we get that hot almost every summer. Today we had a cool front blow in and the temperature never got above 92, and won't get much higher than that for the rest of the week.
There is a story that when Kissinger was meeting with Chou en Lai, he asked Chou what he thought of the French Revolution. Chou famously replied it's too soon to tell. Unfortunately, that kind of time frame is inconceivable to most of us in the modern West. Blaming temporary heat waves on permanent, man-made changes in the climate is part of this short-term thinking that isn't at all realistic.
Shatbat
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I was in Vegas a few days ago and it felt rather hot, and I only went outside in the nighttime. It was 40 C, which is 108 F if I remember my conversions right. Even the breeze was hot, quite unusual to me. I wonder what will come out of this.
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To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day. - Winston Churchill
Complaints about the weather will come of it. Wait a bit. It will cool down.
ruveyn
Here is a presentation by a geologist about how weather and climate were in the not so distant past.
All complaints about this summer being the worst ever are bogus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... C4I#at=362
ruveyn
It is not like we have a real baseline to measure from, coming out of an ice age, which was proceeded by the warmest period in recent times, sea level 21 foot higher, Florida a reef. The following ice age, sea level 440 foot lower. Recent, last few hundred years, sea level rising a foot in a hundred years.
We still have not broken the 1930s records, much less 1913. We may be in a period as hot as the 1950s.
Everyone should panic and send your money to Inventor@WrongPlanet.
Inventor, is it accurate to state that there has been a drop in usable rainfall/snowfall in some US regions over the past few years? I've read a few things about that, but you're more in depth on that subject that I am.
The drought that started about 700, took down the Maya, the Anisazi, Membris, lots of cultures between, that lived in mud brick houses, built in groups, used irrigated farming, had high fired polychrome pottery, wove cloth, and were well adapted. That drought continued until 1500.
A second drought started with the desertification caused to the grasslands of the southwest, about 1850, when cattle herds of 100,000 were run and reduced the land to brush in a few years. West Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, had been grasslands since the last ice age.
That was compounded by The Homestead Act, where to claim land it had to be plowed, and some very poor land was plowed, breaking the sod crust, that had held moisture and prevented the wind from blowing the fine particles away. The west is still scarred by furrows of sand, blowouts, where the recent deposits, yellow, have blown away exposing the red deposits, which were laid down during the Lesser Dryas Period, 1500 years following the last ice age.
There is a bare crust of life over the yellow sand, hardly anything in the red, while the gray is high in organic matter, and is where Clovis Points are found. It was the surface during the last ice age.
It was all windblown dust, nothing lived there, and it took 10,000 years for life to restart, to claim the surface, and less than five years for cattle to turn it to desert again.
Then cattle were run farther north, after the removal of buffalo and other Native Americans, about 1870.
Richer land was farmed, the Dakodas, sod busters, which reduced the amount of soil moisture, to where it could only grow grain, one crop of spaced grass.
10,000 years of water has slowly declined over the last hundred years, where the soil is now dry at depth. There is no water three to five foot down which the old grass used to use, Crops depend on current rainfall.
Evaporation from the soil drives rainfall, and when there is nothing left, a late rain starts a drought cycle. Drought is spreading from the southwest, has been for 150 years, and is now showing up in the Mid West.
The evaporation of water takes up heat. As long as there is water, it is cooler, but break the water cycle, it is going to get hot. Hot air can hold more moisture before it rains, so there can be both more water vapor in the air, and less rain, and higher heat. This condition drives storms, tornados, land Hurricanes, of recent fame.
Now the rains, hail, winds, fall east of the Appalachians, and drains into the Atlantic. More water being pumped out of the Rockies, High Plains, Mid West, and being dumped on the East Coast.
This started before the industrial era, CO2 is not the only problem we face.
A second problem is when the conditions for rainfall happen less often, more rain falls in a short time, causing floods, in the middle of a drought. Water stressed trees like Spruce, are dying by the millions to the Spruce Beetle.
Forests held water, released it slowly, but now that they are dying, wildfires explode. As the last holdout, mountain areas neither farmed or grazed give way, the only water will be found up high.
As it warms, what used to fall as snow comes as rain, and with nothing to hold it, rapid runoff, floods, leaving little to melt over the following summer.
There are natural cycles, heat peaks about every twenty years, teens, thirties, fifties, seventies, ninties, now. What we did not do, most records are for 1913, it was just hot. 1815 was the year without summer, frosts in the summer months.
What we are doing is like pushing a child on a swing, where a slight push at the top of the arc, the swing goes higher. We are adding several types of push.
Farming used to plant wind brakes, trees along their fence lines. It works to conserve soil moisture, lower wind speed, and increases rainfall. That was all cleared so large tractors and combines could plant and harvest a whole County. Treelines slowed the swing.
Land was planted in cover crops and laid fallow. Not farmed or grazed it increased in organic matter and stored water. Now we no till farm the same land every year. Fallow land slowed the swing.
You don't miss your water till the well runs dry.
Thelibrarian
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Inventor, I not only live in a semi-arid climate, but raise cattle. What's more, we've been in serious drougth since 2007. Though I'm not making a lot of money, I haven't lost any either, which is more than some of my neighbors can say. It's a matter of learning to with with the environment we have. That's what the successful sodbusters, Indians, and others had to learn as well.
neilson_wheels
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Thelibrarian
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That's the kind of attitude that perpetuates the human modification of the environment and climate.
Since all living things modify their environment to meet their needs, at least to some extent, I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps you would be so good as to enlighten me.
neilson_wheels
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Indeed they do, all other populations go through their natural cycles unless the ecosystem and prey/predator relationships are disrupted. We, as a species have these wonderful brains that have given us the competitive advantage over others, and yet when presented with evidence of a negative feedback loop the most common reaction is denial.
I saw that you provisionally accepted climate change in one of your previous posts. But when confronted with such a well presented argument regarding the water cycle and climate, as that by Inventor, your response seems to be 'keep on keeping on'. I feel these signs are indications that farming strategies need to change.
Thelibrarian
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Nielsen, if you want to know what I think, all you have to do is ask; I like to think that I'm my own best spokesman. I do think we are witnessing some climate change. The questions are whether it is man-made, or whether it is natural. And if it is man-made, exactly what the source is.
One of the reasons I'm leery of the CO2 theory is that it sounds suspiciously to me like another theory to blame the West for all the world's problems. This approach is very Politically Correct, but not necessarily very scientific. For example, most of the world's CO2 is now being emitted in Asia, and primarily comes from China and India. And emissions reductions for these nations aren't even considered in the Kyoto accords.
Things are now so bad in that part of the world that pilots report encountering a wall of smog hundreds of miles out at sea. Rice harvests are down by as much as ten percent. Much of China is rapidly turning in to desert. These are places where pollution control is unknown. If seeing is believing for you, I would present the following for your consideration:
https://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=18& ... yAGX9oGICA
If climate change is indeed man-made, might not this be a more serious factor than the West's current pollution, which is negligible in comparison?
As far as my agricultural activities go, being sensitive to the needs of the land isn't only good stewardship, but good economically as well. Overstocking cattle doesn't pay off in any way.
neilson_wheels
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Sorry I thought we were discussing the SW America. As I said before, in my opinion that was a very eloquent post regarding the water cycle in America and extremely relevant to the discussion.
The title 'climate change' came about because 'global warming' prompted the idea that everyone will see a big jump in temperatures, longer summers all round, what's the problem? Why change? Ambient temperature changes are small but significant and are not indicated by maximum recorded temperatures at any specific location. An argument that seems to be quite popular on this site.
Those pictures you posted are indicative of what the west was like not too far in the past, we are slowly learning that a less toxic world is better. The argument that the under developed nations should be limited in their ability to compete in the global economy will continue to fall flat with them, especially when they are both competition and suppliers to the Kyoto Protocol Co-operative.
Is climate change man made, it's still not proven. It seems that accurate modelling of these cycles is still beyond our comprehension. I feel the more appropriate question is this:
Can we afford to take the gamble?
Stewardship is primarily economically motivated as is every other facet of modern life.
