Girl killed by boy whose prom invite she turned down

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khaoz
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27 Apr 2014, 3:16 am

cyberdad wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

(i'm looking in the archives of The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (from where the articles claims to have drawn the report) and i'm not seeing this study--is this article/study even legit?)

starvingartist wrote:

and guys never never choose their female companions poorly based on things like physical attractiveness? i'm sure i would have to look really hard to find any REAL scientific evidence to back that up, too.

Most men actually choose women approximately similar in appearance to themselves as a mate. Once again this is scientific.

starvingartist wrote:

another man in the world, and a father no less, who thinks women's behaviour is dictated by their ovaries. wonderful. :roll:

i feel sorry for your daughter you already think so little of her.

This particular scientific study says that what men say they look for and what they actually look for are not the same. I certainly would not seek out a female who was in any way similar to me physically.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 204845.htm

Hopper
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27 Apr 2014, 3:19 am

cyberdad wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

did you ever think that in the beginning of such relationships these guys might be disingenuous with these girls, flatter and pamper them (it's called "grooming"), and then when they get them alone suddenly the monster comes out to play--by then it's too late and the girl is afraid for her safety with him and afraid for her safety if she tries to break up with him. but yeah, we should totally put the blame for that on the girls, not the as*hole douchebags who lie to the girls and beat them. :roll:

Actually I prefer science to speculation
"Under the hormonal influence of ovulation, women delude themselves into thinking that the sexy bad boys will become devoted partners and better dads," Durante said. "When looking at the sexy cad through ovulation goggles, Mr. Wrong looked exactly like Mr. Right."
http://www.livescience.com/20294-women- ... al%2Bmedia

As I said, trust is largely a prerquisite for nice decent men who have to bend over backwards to prove they are reliable, I've seen so many examples of girls in highschool, university and in my extended family and friends making the same mistake choosing "douchebags" on the basis they have a motorbike or they are good looking or some other vacuous thing that I've lost count.

In this instance science nicely explains it.

No, it doesn't. One thing true of pretty much all biological women is that they have ovaries. One thing not true of pretty much all biological women is that they are with 'bad boys' (or, to use the apparently scientific term, 'cads'). Here, 'science' - and it looks a poor study - tells us hormones influence feelings. Wow.

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Utter rubbish. I may views of how young girls behave based on my observation and on scientific evidence but that does not mean I would use this to dictate how I would think about or treat my daughter.

Then you should not have those views at all. Your daughter is not special - there's no reason to treat her different to how you would treat any other girl or woman.

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starvingartist
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27 Apr 2014, 3:40 am

cyberdad wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

Google Kristina Durante (yes she's a woman) Have a read of some of interesting peer reviewed scientific articles she's written
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 122711.htm
business.utsa.edu/faculty/kdurante/files/ovulationpaternalinvestment.pdf
Most enlightening

one study on a particular topic, even if published in a peer reviewed journal, does not prove anything unless the results are repeated again and again in further studies on that same topic. have her results from this particular study on ovulating females and "sexy cads" been repeated elsewhere? if so, where are those studies?

starvingartist wrote:

Most men actually choose women approximately similar in appearance to themselves as a mate. Once again this is scientific.

got any actual evidence to back up this claim?

starvingartist wrote:

another man in the world, and a father no less, who thinks women's behaviour is dictated by their ovaries. wonderful. :roll:

i feel sorry for your daughter you already think so little of her.

Utter rubbish. I may have views of how young girls behave based on my observation and on scientific evidence but that does not mean I would use this to dictate how I would think about or treat my daughter.

so these observations you've made (and the evidence from a single research study) apply to how you think about every other young girl except your own daughter--i see.

cyberdad
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27 Apr 2014, 3:43 am

khaoz wrote:

Sorry my bad...I mean't average looking, not same...

XFilesGeek
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27 Apr 2014, 6:08 pm

Soooo.....

A woman gets killed by a man and the response is to immediately blame the woman?

Great. I love WP. :roll:

P.S. "All women love bad men" is not "scientific".......

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Sweetleaf
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27 Apr 2014, 6:26 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Most men actually choose women approximately similar in appearance to themselves as a mate. Once again this is scientific.

huh? I have never heard of that....plenty of guys end up dating attractive females who maybe don't make the best of mates, or maybe even end up cheating and leaving them for someone else. Never heard of guys seeking out females that look like them, so I'd really like to see a study on this as it does not match up with anything I've ever heard of.

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heavenlyabyss
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28 Apr 2014, 1:20 am

This is terrible.

I wish more men would reach out for help rather than resort to violence.

cyberdad
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28 Apr 2014, 1:26 am

Sorry folks I got thrown of the server yesterday so wasn't able to respond.

i) both men and women are sexually attracted to attractive people but what I was trying to say (and perhaps not articulating very well) is that both men and women choose average looking partners who are less slightly less attractive than themselves to get married to. Its to do with ensuring their child has a mother or father who will not leave them or the child.
http://www.cosmopolitan.com.au/relation ... ing-girls/

ii) As confirmed by the references I posted earlier younger women do make irrational choices with regard to males based on their ovulation cycle from the time they are young teenagers. This is (despite it's contraversial connotations) a well accepted hypothesis.

iii) Men and women can (and do) have multiple sexual partners and their impulsive teenage brains make them both a little reckless i.e. binge drinking and making poor choices, however I acknowledge the risk factor to be far higher for females than males.

The issues I raised pertain to an earlier poster (who mysteriously seems to have not attracted any criticism except from me?) who tried to use this murder of the poor girl as an illustration of why women don't trust men. I found this warning to be patently one sided and biased given there is plenty of biological and sociological evidence of women's behavior for decent men to be equally untrusting of women. Before getting married I found almost all the young women I dated lied about their intentions or deceived in order to wait for something better to come along. if it's a question of trust then both men and women have something to be concerned.

heavenlyabyss
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28 Apr 2014, 1:32 am

cyberdad wrote:

The problem here is that the girl is dead and the guy is alive.

While men and women can both be abusers, men are more likely to engage in physical aggression than women are.

As for your other points, I don't really care to debate them. Men and women both make stupid choices about dating partners. They don't of course expect that they are going to end up dead because of it.

cyberdad
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28 Apr 2014, 1:33 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:

This is terrible.
I wish more men would reach out for help rather than resort to violence.

Perhaps (at the risk of being called a misogynist) we could also wish more women would use their brains before deciding to tie the knot with a man who shows signs of being violent. These men are very very easy to spot. They are usually bad tempered and aggressive individuals. Unfortunately women are biologically programmed to seek aggressive and dominant men.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hea ... essive-men

Any wonder a few thousand bloodthirsty Vikings were successful at spreading their genes through 90% of Europe.

heavenlyabyss
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28 Apr 2014, 1:47 am

cyberdad wrote:

heavenlyabyss wrote:

This is terrible.
I wish more men would reach out for help rather than resort to violence.

I disagree that they are easy to spot. Abusers can be very charming.

Edit: Also, men are notorious for giving good looks top priority. In many cases, they overlook abusive tendencies of these women. I'm playing devil's advocate, but it goes both ways.

cyberdad
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28 Apr 2014, 1:52 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

heavenlyabyss wrote:

This is terrible.
I wish more men would reach out for help rather than resort to violence.

I disagree that they are easy to spot. Abusers can be very charming.

If you read the article (based on peer reviewed research) women seek dominant and assertive men. The aggression comes with the package. I disagree that these men rely on sneaky grooming tactics as asserted by another poster to hide their aggression. I've known plenty of such men and they certainly don't hide what they are.

BTW the victim in this thread was not associated with her killer.

cyberdad
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28 Apr 2014, 1:55 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:

Edit: Also, men are notorious for giving good looks top priority. In many cases, they overlook abusive tendencies of these women. I'm playing devil's advocate, but it goes both ways.

This is a Hollywood fantasy based on celebrity marriages. Men who seek multiple partners or short term one night stands may seek out supermodels. According to evidence based research most men seek out women as life partners who are less attractive. Biological imperative.

Kraichgauer
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28 Apr 2014, 1:58 am

Geez, back in school, plenty of girls treated me like crap, and I never wanted to kill any of them.

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heavenlyabyss
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28 Apr 2014, 2:07 am

cyberdad wrote:

heavenlyabyss wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

heavenlyabyss wrote:

This is terrible.
I wish more men would reach out for help rather than resort to violence.

I disagree that they are easy to spot. Abusers can be very charming.

http://www.news.com.au/world/class-clow ... 6897719255

Well, first of all, she obviously knew him, even if not well. He asked her out many times. Her repeated rejections are apparently what fueled the murder. Keep in mind that men are more likely to more likely to kill out of jealousy than women, who are more likely to kill in self-defense.

Second of all, I sort of agree with you that younger people can be naive and particularly younger women may be at risk for falling for the "macho guy." I tend to think of this as a societal problem though, rather than an evolutionary problem (and frankly this discussion belongs in the PPR forum which attracts all the flies).

And third of all, most abusers actually can be charming when they want to be. I don't know about the men you know, but I know at least one guy (an ex of a relative of mine) who was extremely charming and the shock that he was abusive came as a great surprise to me.

khaoz
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28 Apr 2014, 2:07 am

I'm thinking it has to really suck being a female in the United States with this objectifying culture we live in.

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