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preventing gun suicide

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auntblabby
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04 Jun 2016, 10:13 pm

cathylynn wrote:
the article doesn't recommend laws. it recommends intervention by friends and family the way my friend handled it.

a lot of folks here on WP are hyper-worried that even that would eventually lead to laws enacted that would impair their 2nd amendment. guns [and anything relating to them, even tangentially] are like the third rail of American politics. but it seems to me that in a gentler age of yore, it was not that uncommon for a wife and a concerned neighbor to get together to make sure a hubby in a funk was kept from his irons for a while.



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04 Jun 2016, 10:34 pm

cathylynn wrote:
fnord, most suicides are impulsive. only 10% of folks who attempt and fail ever try again. guns are 85% of the time lethal, while pills are only 2%. preventing lethal methods often gives someone a second chance.


You're wrong. I have too much close experience in this department. My dad was 5 min away from being dead and that was from his prescription meds. He was on a vent for several days. He still has access to his meds now. Still says he wants to kill himself and would hang himself if he knew how or use my guns if he could borrow them. Point is his pills worked well enough so he knows they can be used again and they are right in front of him and a hell of a lot less painful than a bullet or hanging. Like I told my Ma, if he wants to do it he will find a way.

A lot of the suicides that come into our trauma hospital are from otc meds - we had one gun come in a couple weeks ago and I think survived. They said he shot a blank.


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Last edited by nurseangela on 04 Jun 2016, 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cathylynn
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04 Jun 2016, 10:36 pm

anecdotes are not good evidence. you should already know that from studying about EBP.

and please read the whole thread. all that's being suggested is for friends or family to take control of guns until the suicidality has passed. just like you not lending a gun to your dad.



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04 Jun 2016, 11:05 pm

cathylynn wrote:
fnord, most suicides are impulsive. only 10% of folks who attempt and fail ever try again. guns are 85% of the time lethal, while pills are only 2%. preventing lethal methods often gives someone a second chance.
Just how often is "often"? By definition, any method that can be successfully used to commit suicide is a lethal method.

Exsanguination, suffocation, poisoning, and kinetic impact are just as lethal as a bullet to the brain.


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cathylynn
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04 Jun 2016, 11:11 pm

fnord, you seem to have missed the point and are arguing semantics.



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04 Jun 2016, 11:55 pm

I doubt rope is that much less effective than firearms. No background checks and waiting around either to buy rope. Climbing a building high enough should be 99% effective [and painless]. If you have one already, sure, no waiting around, but you'd have to show evidence that people won't just apply method substitution to it otherwise.

I'd also be hesitant of "pill" ones in regards to determining whether it was serious or not, as people that use a pack of drugs don't put thought into it and are usually doing it for help/attention rather than wanting to go through with it, as: a simple combo of prescription sedatives and alcohol is 100% effective [and painless].



cathylynn
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05 Jun 2016, 12:26 am

hanging results in completed suicide about 69% of attempts.



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05 Jun 2016, 12:31 am

Fnord wrote:
I know I'm gonna get hated on for this, but the only way to keep people from committing suicide by firearm is to make other means of suicide more available.

If someone is really determined to do it, they don't need a gun.

Actually, for women a gun is way down the list of preferred methods, so we're pretty much just talking about guys.

Quote:
"Women who commit suicide use less violent methods, such as drugs and carbon monoxide poisoning, than do men, who more often use violent methods such as guns and hanging."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11079640
also, https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/

But, that second link also mentions that men are 3.5x more likely to successfully die from suicide & 50% of suicides use a gun. And those guys 7 out of 10 times are likely to be white.

So, were they gun owners before becoming suicidal or did they specifically get a gun to prepare for suicide?

It would make a difference in intervention, I would think?


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auntblabby
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05 Jun 2016, 12:33 am

it seems at least some of them were not previous gun owners, who then bought a gun soon before they used it on themselves.



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05 Jun 2016, 8:12 am

cathylynn wrote:
fnord, you seem to have missed the point and are arguing semantics.
No, I am arguing logically. Any suicide method that results in death is lethal. People do not need firearms to kill themselves, yet some people seem to think that eliminating firearms will also eliminate suicide.

Hating on firearms will not stop a determined person from committing suicide.


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05 Jun 2016, 12:39 pm

Fnord wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
fnord, you seem to have missed the point and are arguing semantics.
No, I am arguing logically. Any suicide method that results in death is lethal. People do not need firearms to kill themselves, yet some people seem to think that eliminating firearms will also eliminate suicide.

Hating on firearms will not stop a determined person from committing suicide.


As I said earlier, shifting society so that mental illnesses - like depression - are taken seriously would likely put a dent in the numbers.

Possibly counter-intuitive, but so might acknowledging people's full bodily sovereignty as a culture.


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cathylynn
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05 Jun 2016, 1:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
fnord, you seem to have missed the point and are arguing semantics.
No, I am arguing logically. Any suicide method that results in death is lethal. People do not need firearms to kill themselves, yet some people seem to think that eliminating firearms will also eliminate suicide.

Hating on firearms will not stop a determined person from committing suicide.

no one is "hating on firearms", just suggesting that someone who is actively suicidal not have ready access to them by letting a family member or friend hold onto them or a key to them. common sense. this will give many people a second chance to live, as most other attempted methods are less likely to result in death. i don't want to eliminate firearms, but if that were to happen, the suicide success rate would fall. most suicides are not committed by determined persons. yes, those folks will eventually complete. most attempts are committed by persons with temporary problems. once those problems resolve, the person is no longer a risk and can easily request their guns back.



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05 Jun 2016, 2:40 pm

cathylynn wrote:
even the prestigious "scientific american" doesn't espouse permanent gun bans for folks who are suicidal, just limiting access until the crisis passes. this is what a friend of mine did. he locked up his guns and gave the key to his wife to hide. now he is better and he can still hunt.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -suicides/


If a person wishes to commit suicide, there are other means to do it - and many - some who are gun owners, chose these alternate means. If a person wants to end his or her life, banning guns won't do it. People have committed suicide long before the invention of guns with rope, knives, drugs, and falling off of cliffs. Ridiculous! :lol:


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cathylynn
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05 Jun 2016, 2:58 pm

Mongoose1 wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
even the prestigious "scientific american" doesn't espouse permanent gun bans for folks who are suicidal, just limiting access until the crisis passes. this is what a friend of mine did. he locked up his guns and gave the key to his wife to hide. now he is better and he can still hunt.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -suicides/


If a person wishes to commit suicide, there are other means to do it - and many - some who are gun owners, chose these alternate means. If a person wants to end his or her life, banning guns won't do it. People have committed suicide long before the invention of guns with rope, knives, drugs, and falling off of cliffs. Ridiculous! :lol:

you obviously didn't read the whole thread. your objection has been addressed.



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06 Jun 2016, 8:37 am

cathylynn wrote:
Mongoose1 wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
even the prestigious "scientific american" doesn't espouse permanent gun bans for folks who are suicidal, just limiting access until the crisis passes. this is what a friend of mine did. he locked up his guns and gave the key to his wife to hide. now he is better and he can still hunt...
If a person wishes to commit suicide, there are other means to do it - and many - some who are gun owners, chose these alternate means. If a person wants to end his or her life, banning guns won't do it. People have committed suicide long before the invention of guns with rope, knives, drugs, and falling off of cliffs. Ridiculous! :lol:
You obviously didn't read the whole thread. Your objection has been addressed.
Addressed, perhaps ... but not disproven ... obviously!


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06 Jun 2016, 5:31 pm

Fnord wrote:
Exsanguination, suffocation, poisoning, and kinetic impact are just as lethal as a bullet to the brain.

Suffocation is slow and extremely uncomfortable. Poisoning can also be very slow and uncomfortable if you don't have access to the right kind of poison. Kinetic impact might be fast if you're lucky and jump from high enough elevation. You still have the risk of surviving as a cripple if you mess it up. It's possible to survive a 100 ft fall if you're (un)lucky. A bullet is by far the easiest way.

Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves. If someone doesn't want to live any longer they shouldn't have to. If society insists on stopping people from killing themselves, society should also insist on alleviating intolerable suffering.