Restrained Autistic Student dies on bus

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androbot01
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18 Dec 2016, 3:43 pm

ZenDen wrote:

So are you saying that every time there's a fight that could be attributed to a particular person's starting it that it's OK if someone kills them???? I don't believe anyone else was in danger of being killed by this person's actions.

On what do you base this conclusion? I have based mine of the available facts. That he had to be restrained to stop him from fighting shows that he was the one behaving badly.
I don't think the people restraining him intended for him to die, I think they intended to restrain him. My question is why was he physically acting out? Why wouldn't he stop fighting?

And your initial question is silly; I think you can figure out the answer.

ZenDen
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18 Dec 2016, 10:43 pm

androbot01 wrote:

ZenDen wrote:

Your comments seemed tho indicate you felt there could not be possibly be culpability on the part of the people that may have killed this boy. The thing is you see is, just because a person kills some one and claims it was accidental they are not protected from prosecution if there was negligence involved.

This person was fighting with someone he apparently felt correct ....have you never been wronged in public? I have. And this person was very pi**ed for some reason. There should have been a trained person or persons available to handle this correctly. Just because you see two people fighting is not a reason to begin the path that lead to this person's death.

I'm not suggesting you have any "killer mentality" but I am suggesting people sometimes like to act and react without enough information...me too at times.

androbot01
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19 Dec 2016, 7:28 am

I'm going by the facts presented. The school workers and bus drive had no motive to kill this kid. They did have motive to restrain him as it was stated that he was fighting. I don't know if there was negligence involved. There is not enough information; if they were negligent then they should be help accountable.
But, if the kid wouldn't stop fighting them, then he brought about his own demise. He began on this path when he started fighting.

ZenDen
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19 Dec 2016, 11:10 am

androbot01 wrote:

Quote:

I don't know if there was negligence involved.

That's exactly right; so how can you claim the people involved were not culpable? By your own words you have no basis to say that. In fact, at this time it's more likely someone's actions caused his death than some type of fake imaginary "mystery illness."

If someone kills someone accidentally then charges of manslaughter are brought against him or her, even if the death was unintended if the Prosecutor decides to bring charges.

And you also admit you don't even know who started the fight, so how can you make judgments? I know you say you understand all these things, so...?

Have you ever been attacked by more than one person at a time and not know what's happening and just fight for your life? I have. Why must people always "ASSUME?"

This is why the law says the people in charge have a legal responsibility to do things correctly.

androbot01
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19 Dec 2016, 11:47 am

ZenDen wrote:

Why must people always "ASSUME?"

Lol, you are the one making the assumption that negligence was at play. I'm not sure why you would assume this when there has been no indication that it is the case.
It doesn't matter who started the fight or what it was about; he had to be restrained as a result of his actions. He is the responsible party.

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19 Dec 2016, 6:01 pm

androbot01 wrote:

It doesn't matter who started the fight or what it was about; he had to be restrained as a result of his actions. He is the responsible party.

False. It matters if the type of restraint or position in which he was put was inherently risky and the dead student's degree of responsibility, if any, is not something you are in a position to judge on the basis of the report.

Autism is not a pass on violence, but not all violent behavior is voluntary. Details make a difference.

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androbot01
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19 Dec 2016, 8:41 pm

Adamantium wrote:

...It matters if the type of restraint or position in which he was put was inherently risky and the dead student's degree of responsibility, if any, is not something you are in a position to judge on the basis of the report.

Neither is anyone else who is participating in this thread. None of us know if an inappropriate hold was used.

Without that information, it appears to have been an accident. An accident which was the result of the deceased's unwillingness to stop fighting.

Adamantium wrote:

Autism is not a pass on violence, but not all violent behavior is voluntary....

True, but it doesn't really matter. Violence is unacceptable.

Sabreclaw
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19 Dec 2016, 9:26 pm

How exactly does autism cause involuntary violence?

EzraS
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21 Dec 2016, 8:08 am

Having always been in special ed for autistics, I have seen my share of kids having to be restrained during a violent meltdown. The question, which hasn't been answered, is what went wrong this time? I know restraining an autistic student sounds abusive. But it really isn't when it's done properly.

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21 Dec 2016, 9:39 am

EzraS wrote:

The question, which hasn't been answered, is what went wrong this time? I know restraining an autistic student sounds abusive. But it really isn't when it's done properly.

This is a sensible response. It is certain that the death of the student was not a desirable or acceptable outcome.

It makes no sense to focus on the guilt or innocence of the people whose actions contributed to the death of the child but instead to focus on how the death occurred and what can be done to prevent it from happening again, or at least minimize the risk of another event of this kind.

It may emerge that there was criminal wrongdoing by those who restrained the student. It may emerge that their training is inadequate and involves procedures that have a high risk of injuring or killing the person they are supposed to be protecting.

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androbot01
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21 Dec 2016, 9:48 am

Adamantium wrote:

It may emerge that there was criminal wrongdoing by those who restrained the student. It may emerge that their training is inadequate and involves procedures that have a high risk of injuring or killing the person they are supposed to be protecting.

Or it may emerge that the kid was acting out and wouldn't comply with the restraint. Accidents happen. Why am I the only person who thinks this is even a possibility.
Adamantium you can rate my response numerically if you want.

Adamantium
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21 Dec 2016, 10:30 am

androbot01 wrote:

Adamantium wrote:

It seems likely that the kid was acting out. Why else would restraint be needed at all?

The point is that the approach to restraining the student should not have resulted in the death of the student.

There are more and less appropriate and effective responses and individuals and institutions faced with responding to aggressive behavior have to consider their options carefully before acting.

Suppose a student is out of control, angry, irrational and about to run into a busy highway, clearly posing a danger to themselves and others. A staff member charged with supervising the student happens to be armed with a 9mm automatic pistol. Would it be appropriate for the staff member to shoot the student to prevent a potential accident?

I think most would agree that this would not be appropriate or legal.

Suppose a student is agitated, shouting, pushing and threatening to hit others. Does it make sense to restrain the student by putting him in a chokehold and waiting until he stops moving before releasing him? Might it be reasonable to ask if there are any other approaches to restraining the student that might be equally effective and less intrinsically risky?

Is "prone restraint" a technique with a history of bad outcomes? A google search says yes.
Are there alternative approaches that might have effectively restrained the student without risk to life and health? This is something that should be explored.

"let's assume nothing went wrong here and blame the student" doesn't seem like a rational response or one with any potential to improve the situation.

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androbot01
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21 Dec 2016, 10:57 am

Adamantium wrote:

...
"let's assume nothing went wrong here and blame the student" doesn't seem like a rational response or one with any potential to improve the situation.

The ugly truth here is that situation cannot be improved. If someone acts out physically they open the door. It's their own fault if the consequences are more than they anticipated. This is one of the risks of mental illness - inappropriate behaviour leads to unpleasant consequences.

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21 Dec 2016, 11:43 am

androbot01 wrote:

The ugly truth here is that situation cannot be improved.

So you say, apparently on the basis of emotion, not reason.

If there is a rational basis for this conclusion, you haven't given it and it isn't in the story the OP linked to.

androbot01 wrote:

If someone acts out physically they open the door. It's their own fault if the consequences are more than they anticipated. This is one of the risks of mental illness - inappropriate behaviour leads to unpleasant consequences.

This position is not supported by law and doesn't seem helpful in response to a tragedy like this.

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androbot01
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21 Dec 2016, 11:59 am

Adamantium wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

The ugly truth here is that situation cannot be improved.

So you say, apparently on the basis of emotion, not reason.

If there is a rational basis for this conclusion, you haven't given it and it isn't in the story the OP linked to.

androbot01 wrote:

This position is not supported by law and doesn't seem helpful in response to a tragedy like this.

Your responses are more about my character than my argument, so I'm not sure how to respond.

It is an unfortunate occurrence when something like this happens, but sometimes things are not how we would hope they would be. But this doesn't necessarily indicate fault.

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21 Dec 2016, 12:29 pm

androbot01 wrote:

Adamantium wrote:

androbot01 wrote:

The ugly truth here is that situation cannot be improved.

So you say, apparently on the basis of emotion, not reason.

If there is a rational basis for this conclusion, you haven't given it and it isn't in the story the OP linked to.

androbot01 wrote:

This position is not supported by law and doesn't seem helpful in response to a tragedy like this.

No, it's not about your attitude but rather does what you are saying make sense.

The position you have taken is fatalist and defeatist. There is nothing in the story that says clearly, "there was nothing else they could have done" or even that identifies the exact cause of death. Bright Futures Academy says only "our preliminary review indicates that all safety protocols were followed" -- there is a more in depth review going on, in addition to a police investigation and autopsy.

Without the results of those investigations, there is no basis for saying "this situation cannot be improved."

Imagine if the aviation authorities responded to incidents, accidents and crashes with this attitude: "Avianca flight 52 ran out of fuel over Long Island after holding too long for entry to JFK? There is nothing we can do about that. Flight is inherently risky and there is nothing to be done..."

But that's not what happens. People look for ways to improve and often find them, sometimes this effort results in procedural changes that make things safer for everyone.

There is no reason to assume that a review of factors contributing to this tragedy can't result in improvements that reduce risk of recurrence of this kind of death.

It is often less useful to look for individual fault than to look at systems and procedures. Moral judgement may not be useful, but a culture of continuous improvement and an openness to learning lessons when things go wrong has been proven to yield beneficial results across many spheres of human activity.

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