Board index › General Discussion › News and Current Events

Details of Russian Hacking in Leaked NSA Document

Page 2 of 6 [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

06 Jun 2017, 12:53 pm

I'll take it that no evidence will ever suffice. You believe only Fearless Leader.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


SH90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2016
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,558
Location: Florida

06 Jun 2017, 1:00 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
I'll take it that no evidence will ever suffice. You believe only Fearless Leader.


You asked a loaded question and that is exactly what it is. But any answer that doesn't fit within your notion, will not be acceptable for you.



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

06 Jun 2017, 1:07 pm

SH90 wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
I'll take it that no evidence will ever suffice. You believe only Fearless Leader.


You asked a loaded question and that is exactly what it is. But any answer that doesn't fit within your notion, will not be acceptable for you.


Nonsense. The question only seems loaded to someone who refuses to accept the possibility that wrongdoing took place. In reality, the probability of wrongdoing is always greater than zero, so that kind of denial makes no logical brain sense.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


SH90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2016
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,558
Location: Florida

06 Jun 2017, 1:16 pm

Thanks for the chuckle...



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

06 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

This argument makes my brain hurt. The probability of wrongdoing is either zero, or greater than zero. Either some evidence would be acceptable, or there is no possible acceptable evidence. Learn to simple logic.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,603
Location: USA

06 Jun 2017, 4:21 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The main reason I am skeptical is that it makes the KGB look like the most stupid hackers in the world that get caught at everything. Maybe Mossad did it and got the US press and Democrates to pin it on Russia. Insane conspiracy theory maybe, but more plausable. Israel wanted Trump to win and Mossad is really good at computers and disinformation.

Or it could be the Russians do soooo much of it they eventually got caught. Rob a store once or twice, you can probably get away with it, if it becomes a compulsion you'll eventually get caught no matter how good you are. It's a matter of numbers and luck. The damning evidence of the entire thing goes all the way back to August when fancy-bear was pinned as the malicious code infecting the DNC servers. It's coded in Russian, and had been widely used by the Russians before the DNC hack, it's also a compiled piece of code, meaning it would have had to been reverse-engineered since no source code is available. It's also complex, meaning it would have taken a significant amount of resources to reverse-engineer and then re-translate back into Russian. None of this is impossible, just exceptionally difficult and resource draining, and it would be much easier to create a virus from scratch that does the specific tasks you want it to do: kind of like fancy-bear itself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cybersecur ... esta-hacks
Here's an anti-virus expert from Symantec (Norton anti-virus, who did their own analysis, since well, it's their business):

Quote:
We’ve analyzed the tools, the binaries, and the infrastructure that was used in the attack, and from that we can confirm that it’s connected to a group that has two names. One is Sofacy, or “Cozy Bear,” and The Dukes, which is also known as “Fancy Bear.” From the binary analysis point of view, I can tell you that the activities of these attackers have been during Russian working hours, either centered on UTC+3 or UTC+4; they don’t work Russian holidays; they work Monday to Friday; there are language identifiers inside that are Russian; when you look at all the victim profiles they would be in interest to the Russian nation-state. So all of that stuff fits the profile. Now, could all those things be false flags? Sure. Other government entities obviously have come out and said it is the Russian state, and the binary forensics would definitely match that.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

06 Jun 2017, 4:33 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The main reason I am skeptical is that it makes the KGB look like the most stupid hackers in the world that get caught at everything. Maybe Mossad did it and got the US press and Democrates to pin it on Russia. Insane conspiracy theory maybe, but more plausable. Israel wanted Trump to win and Mossad is really good at computers and disinformation.

Or it could be the Russians do soooo much of it they eventually got caught. Rob a store once or twice, you can probably get away with it, if it becomes a compulsion you'll eventually get caught no matter how good you are. It's a matter of numbers and luck. The damning evidence of the entire thing goes all the way back to August when fancy-bear was pinned as the malicious code infecting the DNC servers. It's coded in Russian, and had been widely used by the Russians before the DNC hack, it's also a compiled piece of code, meaning it would have had to been reverse-engineered since no source code is available. It's also complex, meaning it would have taken a significant amount of resources to reverse-engineer and then re-translate back into Russian. None of this is impossible, just exceptionally difficult and resource draining, and it would be much easier to create a virus from scratch that does the specific tasks you want it to do: kind of like fancy-bear itself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cybersecur ... esta-hacks
Here's an anti-virus expert from Symantec (Norton anti-virus, who did their own analysis, since well, it's their business):

Quote:
We’ve analyzed the tools, the binaries, and the infrastructure that was used in the attack, and from that we can confirm that it’s connected to a group that has two names. One is Sofacy, or “Cozy Bear,” and The Dukes, which is also known as “Fancy Bear.” From the binary analysis point of view, I can tell you that the activities of these attackers have been during Russian working hours, either centered on UTC+3 or UTC+4; they don’t work Russian holidays; they work Monday to Friday; there are language identifiers inside that are Russian; when you look at all the victim profiles they would be in interest to the Russian nation-state. So all of that stuff fits the profile. Now, could all those things be false flags? Sure. Other government entities obviously have come out and said it is the Russian state, and the binary forensics would definitely match that.


I don't think the credibility/concreteness of the evidence actually matters. When someone has already firmly made up their mind about a situation (for example: that any possible criminal/treasonous connections between Trump and Russia are "fake news"), expert/empirical evidence is not going to persuade them one way or the other. The inevitable confrontation with reality is not going to persuade them one way or the other. No matter what is laid directly before their eyes, they will continue to deny reality if it conflicts with their beliefs and no matter the consequences. Such is the human nature of cognitive bias.



Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,603
Location: USA

06 Jun 2017, 4:51 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The main reason I am skeptical is that it makes the KGB look like the most stupid hackers in the world that get caught at everything. Maybe Mossad did it and got the US press and Democrates to pin it on Russia. Insane conspiracy theory maybe, but more plausable. Israel wanted Trump to win and Mossad is really good at computers and disinformation.

Or it could be the Russians do soooo much of it they eventually got caught. Rob a store once or twice, you can probably get away with it, if it becomes a compulsion you'll eventually get caught no matter how good you are. It's a matter of numbers and luck. The damning evidence of the entire thing goes all the way back to August when fancy-bear was pinned as the malicious code infecting the DNC servers. It's coded in Russian, and had been widely used by the Russians before the DNC hack, it's also a compiled piece of code, meaning it would have had to been reverse-engineered since no source code is available. It's also complex, meaning it would have taken a significant amount of resources to reverse-engineer and then re-translate back into Russian. None of this is impossible, just exceptionally difficult and resource draining, and it would be much easier to create a virus from scratch that does the specific tasks you want it to do: kind of like fancy-bear itself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cybersecur ... esta-hacks
Here's an anti-virus expert from Symantec (Norton anti-virus, who did their own analysis, since well, it's their business):

Quote:
We’ve analyzed the tools, the binaries, and the infrastructure that was used in the attack, and from that we can confirm that it’s connected to a group that has two names. One is Sofacy, or “Cozy Bear,” and The Dukes, which is also known as “Fancy Bear.” From the binary analysis point of view, I can tell you that the activities of these attackers have been during Russian working hours, either centered on UTC+3 or UTC+4; they don’t work Russian holidays; they work Monday to Friday; there are language identifiers inside that are Russian; when you look at all the victim profiles they would be in interest to the Russian nation-state. So all of that stuff fits the profile. Now, could all those things be false flags? Sure. Other government entities obviously have come out and said it is the Russian state, and the binary forensics would definitely match that.


I don't think the credibility/concreteness of the evidence actually matters. When someone has already firmly made up their mind about a situation (for example: that any possible criminal/treasonous connections between Trump and Russia are "fake news"), expert/empirical evidence is not going to persuade them one way or the other. The inevitable confrontation with reality is not going to persuade them one way or the other. No matter what is laid directly before their eyes, they will continue to deny reality if it conflicts with their beliefs and no matter the consequences. Such is the human nature of cognitive bias.

I agree with you, but my experience on this site leads me to believe ASPartOfMe is not that person: he/she has a very studious way of posting, usually with links to complete sources and a firm understanding of what he/she posts. Basically I view ASPartOfMe as a person that's more logic/evidence oriented than emotionally oriented-- which is what leads to the cognitive bias you broached. That's why I'll use my precious time in this case: ASPartOfMe may not agree with me or my evidence, but I'm pretty sure ASPartOfMe will at least listen and not just tune it out.



B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

06 Jun 2017, 5:00 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
I don't think the credibility/concreteness of the evidence actually matters. When someone has already firmly made up their mind about a situation (for example: that any possible criminal/treasonous connections between Trump and Russia are "fake news"), expert/empirical evidence is not going to persuade them one way or the other. The inevitable confrontation with reality is not going to persuade them one way or the other. No matter what is laid directly before their eyes, they will continue to deny reality if it conflicts with their beliefs and no matter the consequences. Such is the human nature of cognitive bias.


Such is the nature of Cognitive Dissonance..



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

06 Jun 2017, 5:01 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I will never believe tabloid nonsense that never goes anywhere, do you seriously believe that Russia is the reason that Hillary lost the election?


She won the popular vote. Who knows how the electoral vote might have gone had the Russian hackers not interfered.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

06 Jun 2017, 7:35 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The main reason I am skeptical is that it makes the KGB look like the most stupid hackers in the world that get caught at everything. Maybe Mossad did it and got the US press and Democrates to pin it on Russia. Insane conspiracy theory maybe, but more plausable. Israel wanted Trump to win and Mossad is really good at computers and disinformation.

Or it could be the Russians do soooo much of it they eventually got caught. Rob a store once or twice, you can probably get away with it, if it becomes a compulsion you'll eventually get caught no matter how good you are. It's a matter of numbers and luck. The damning evidence of the entire thing goes all the way back to August when fancy-bear was pinned as the malicious code infecting the DNC servers. It's coded in Russian, and had been widely used by the Russians before the DNC hack, it's also a compiled piece of code, meaning it would have had to been reverse-engineered since no source code is available. It's also complex, meaning it would have taken a significant amount of resources to reverse-engineer and then re-translate back into Russian. None of this is impossible, just exceptionally difficult and resource draining, and it would be much easier to create a virus from scratch that does the specific tasks you want it to do: kind of like fancy-bear itself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cybersecur ... esta-hacks
Here's an anti-virus expert from Symantec (Norton anti-virus, who did their own analysis, since well, it's their business):

Quote:
We’ve analyzed the tools, the binaries, and the infrastructure that was used in the attack, and from that we can confirm that it’s connected to a group that has two names. One is Sofacy, or “Cozy Bear,” and The Dukes, which is also known as “Fancy Bear.” From the binary analysis point of view, I can tell you that the activities of these attackers have been during Russian working hours, either centered on UTC+3 or UTC+4; they don’t work Russian holidays; they work Monday to Friday; there are language identifiers inside that are Russian; when you look at all the victim profiles they would be in interest to the Russian nation-state. So all of that stuff fits the profile. Now, could all those things be false flags? Sure. Other government entities obviously have come out and said it is the Russian state, and the binary forensics would definitely match that.


I don't think the credibility/concreteness of the evidence actually matters. When someone has already firmly made up their mind about a situation (for example: that any possible criminal/treasonous connections between Trump and Russia are "fake news"), expert/empirical evidence is not going to persuade them one way or the other. The inevitable confrontation with reality is not going to persuade them one way or the other. No matter what is laid directly before their eyes, they will continue to deny reality if it conflicts with their beliefs and no matter the consequences. Such is the human nature of cognitive bias.

I agree with you, but my experience on this site leads me to believe ASPartOfMe is not that person: he/she has a very studious way of posting, usually with links to complete sources and a firm understanding of what he/she posts. Basically I view ASPartOfMe as a person that's more logic/evidence oriented than emotionally oriented-- which is what leads to the cognitive bias you broached. That's why I'll use my precious time in this case: ASPartOfMe may not agree with me or my evidence, but I'm pretty sure ASPartOfMe will at least listen and not just tune it out.


I thank you for the complement. I think with the Russian hacking allegations I am never going to be satisfied with any explanation because I know intellegence agancies and powerful agenda makers will usually be better at spreading disinformation then i could ever be at counteracting them mentally. I do find your theory plausable. History is replete with best, smartest non emotional people getting caught up in thier success and making dumb careless mistakes. I have done that more then a few times :oops:


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


StinkyDog
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2017
Age: 76
Gender: Female
Posts: 475
Location: In Your Mind

06 Jun 2017, 7:52 pm



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDw23HOxo_U



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

06 Jun 2017, 8:08 pm

StinkyDog wrote:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDw23HOxo_U


John Oliver is one of my all time favorite political satirists! :lol:


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

06 Jun 2017, 8:29 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The main reason I am skeptical is that it makes the KGB look like the most stupid hackers in the world that get caught at everything. Maybe Mossad did it and got the US press and Democrates to pin it on Russia. Insane conspiracy theory maybe, but more plausable. Israel wanted Trump to win and Mossad is really good at computers and disinformation.

Or it could be the Russians do soooo much of it they eventually got caught. Rob a store once or twice, you can probably get away with it, if it becomes a compulsion you'll eventually get caught no matter how good you are. It's a matter of numbers and luck. The damning evidence of the entire thing goes all the way back to August when fancy-bear was pinned as the malicious code infecting the DNC servers. It's coded in Russian, and had been widely used by the Russians before the DNC hack, it's also a compiled piece of code, meaning it would have had to been reverse-engineered since no source code is available. It's also complex, meaning it would have taken a significant amount of resources to reverse-engineer and then re-translate back into Russian. None of this is impossible, just exceptionally difficult and resource draining, and it would be much easier to create a virus from scratch that does the specific tasks you want it to do: kind of like fancy-bear itself.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cybersecur ... esta-hacks
Here's an anti-virus expert from Symantec (Norton anti-virus, who did their own analysis, since well, it's their business):

Quote:
We’ve analyzed the tools, the binaries, and the infrastructure that was used in the attack, and from that we can confirm that it’s connected to a group that has two names. One is Sofacy, or “Cozy Bear,” and The Dukes, which is also known as “Fancy Bear.” From the binary analysis point of view, I can tell you that the activities of these attackers have been during Russian working hours, either centered on UTC+3 or UTC+4; they don’t work Russian holidays; they work Monday to Friday; there are language identifiers inside that are Russian; when you look at all the victim profiles they would be in interest to the Russian nation-state. So all of that stuff fits the profile. Now, could all those things be false flags? Sure. Other government entities obviously have come out and said it is the Russian state, and the binary forensics would definitely match that.


I don't think the credibility/concreteness of the evidence actually matters. When someone has already firmly made up their mind about a situation (for example: that any possible criminal/treasonous connections between Trump and Russia are "fake news"), expert/empirical evidence is not going to persuade them one way or the other. The inevitable confrontation with reality is not going to persuade them one way or the other. No matter what is laid directly before their eyes, they will continue to deny reality if it conflicts with their beliefs and no matter the consequences. Such is the human nature of cognitive bias.

I agree with you, but my experience on this site leads me to believe ASPartOfMe is not that person: he/she has a very studious way of posting, usually with links to complete sources and a firm understanding of what he/she posts. Basically I view ASPartOfMe as a person that's more logic/evidence oriented than emotionally oriented-- which is what leads to the cognitive bias you broached. That's why I'll use my precious time in this case: ASPartOfMe may not agree with me or my evidence, but I'm pretty sure ASPartOfMe will at least listen and not just tune it out.


I'm sorry, I should have specified I wasn't referring to the person you were quoting and responding to directly with what I said. It's just that I have seen a few reactions to reasonable evidence from some here since I joined this forum but also elsewhere on the internet, frequently lately from Trump supporters. There's a lot of denial of plain reality going on because people are emotionally committed to their ideas and it just prevents them from being able to consider any evidence that causes them to question those ideas because it's psychologically very uncomfortable for them to do so.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

06 Jun 2017, 8:37 pm

Also, I feel it necessary to point out that I called it the human nature of cognitive bias very intentionally--because it is a very common human phenomenon, and no one is completely immune to it. The only way to fight it is to accustom oneself to questioning things, even--or perhaps especially--deeply held beliefs that make us uncomfortable to question, until it becomes habitual. Anything worth believing in (and emotionally and psychologically investing in) should stand up to questioning.



Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,603
Location: USA

06 Jun 2017, 8:46 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
I'm sorry, I should have specified I wasn't referring to the person you were quoting and responding to directly with what I said. It's just that I have seen a few reactions to reasonable evidence from some here since I joined this forum but also elsewhere on the internet, frequently lately from Trump supporters. There's a lot of denial of plain reality going on because people are emotionally committed to their ideas and it just prevents them from being able to consider any evidence that causes them to question those ideas because it's psychologically very uncomfortable for them to do so.


Like I said earlier, I agree: for some evidence takes second place to their emotional tie to an issue, whether that emotional tie be accurate or not. Even in this day and age we have flat-earthers and moon landing deniers. No amount of evidence, logic, or common sense will convince a person that's strung out on conspiracy theories because at the heart of every conspiracy theory is the belief everyone else is lying or partaking in a mass delusion and thus the conspiracy theorist is the only sane person-- not only is that belief narcissistic, it borders on schizophrenic hallucination. That said, I'll still post evidence, because the people in question aren't the only audience members: there's an entire silent group that merely reads and does not post, and while a debate with an unmoving wall of ignorance may not appear to be winnable, that person isn't necessarily who I'm trying to convince. :wink: