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Tader
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05 Nov 2017, 10:17 pm

good for me it mostly happens in usa



naturalplastic
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05 Nov 2017, 10:28 pm

There are serial killers, and there are mass murderers/spree killers, and then there is terrorism. And terrorism is subdivided into "state sponsored terrorism" , and "lone wolf terrorism".

Lone wolf terrorism and generic spree killing probably over lap. If the Columbine Boys had thought of some cause (religious, political, or racial) to identify with, they might have (as an after thought) proclaimed that they did their killing in the name of that cause. But that cause, whatever it may have been, would have been just that-an afterthought- and not the actual motivation for the crime. But if they had proclaimed that they shot all of those people in the name of PETA or whatever they would indeed be labeled "terrorists". But as it happened they never proclaimed any cause. So Columbine is not thought of as "terrorism". Even as domestic terrorism. I suspect that some, but not all, lone wolf Islamic terrorism is like that. There are many disaffected young, and not so young, folks in the world. Some, who may have some ethnic connection to Islam, may latch onto Islam as an afterthought cause to glorify their mass murder.



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05 Nov 2017, 10:34 pm

Tader wrote:
good for me it mostly happens in usa


not so good for you: russia is about a hop, skip and a jump away. :silent:


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Marknis
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05 Nov 2017, 10:35 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
B19 wrote:
If this killer of the day had said "Allahu Akbar" as he murdered USA men women and children, would that have made his actions worse?

.


Well DUHHHH... . you're the one with the weird notion that it makes a difference. So why don't you tell us?

You are the one making the value judgment. No one else is.
So why are you trying to overthrow a notion that you yourself created and then projected onto everyone else?

No one said that labeling a crime "terrorism" makes it worse than labeling it "murder" except you. So why are you crusading against the notion when no one else but ever had the notion in the first place?


Killing someone is killing someone no matter what form it takes. I don't see why it's so hard for some people to process.



Aspzan
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05 Nov 2017, 10:43 pm

I asked a question but I'm not looking to argue just asking whether the guns used are the major issue?



naturalplastic
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06 Nov 2017, 12:08 am

Aspzan wrote:
I asked a question but I'm not looking to argue just asking whether the guns used are the major issue?


N.W. England?

That's where your profile says you live.

I guess you were too naïve about American politics to realize that asking that question is stumbling into the center of the hornet's nest of the American gun control debate.

American private citizens are allowed to own military type assault rifles. And some of these mass shootings were done with such weapons. And its hard to murder 60 folks from a hotel window if you are using a single shot muzzle loading musket. So yes the type of weapon is indeed part of the issue. Now that I have warned you...I will just step aside and watch the fight you sparked, and watch the pro and anti gun Americans stomp on your prone body while they brawl with each other! Lol!



EzraS
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06 Nov 2017, 12:10 am

Some seem bent on using situations like this to trash America.



Aspzan
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06 Nov 2017, 12:38 am

I know it's part of the issue I just meant is it necessarily such a big factor? Many mass murders and attacks happen without the use of firearms. My example would be the most recent I know of. On the 14th of October in Mogadishu at least 358 people were killed by a truck bomb.

I agree though it's a hornet's nest of a debate but I think my naivety was hoping for a discussion.



B19
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06 Nov 2017, 1:02 am

Mass shooting is terrible wherever it happens, especially when children are amongst the victims, and the frequency of these events in the USA attracts much international comment because it is, relative to other countries, such a fairly frequent occurrence.

As a parent and grandparent, perhaps I relate to the horror of it on a familial level too. I couldn't bear it if my children and grandchildren were murdered in this senseless way, no matter where it happened. I do have a grandchild living in the USA at present, and my concern for his safety is a valid issue.



LoveNotHate
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06 Nov 2017, 3:10 am

Kiprobalhato wrote:
what are americans warring against?

Being a loser

Losers become angry, and develop mental illness



caffeinekid
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06 Nov 2017, 6:14 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
what are americans warring against?

Being a loser

Losers become angry, and develop mental illness


Like an ageing celebrity taking more and more desperate roles, just to stay in the public eye?

I hope the States can finally have "the talk" about guns and the NRA can have their power taken away.

It always seems to be "now is not the time for this conversation" well if now is not the time. WHEN IS? :(


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Omniel
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06 Nov 2017, 11:59 am

caffeinekid wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
what are americans warring against?

Being a loser

Losers become angry, and develop mental illness


Like an ageing celebrity taking more and more desperate roles, just to stay in the public eye?

I hope the States can finally have "the talk" about guns and the NRA can have their power taken away.

It always seems to be "now is not the time for this conversation" well if now is not the time. WHEN IS? :(


This is a mental illness issue, and the lack of care people with mental illnesses get (and the power others do not have to force them to get help). Nothing to do with guns, he wasn't supposed to have them anyway so there is a failing in the system that allowed him to purchase.

A huge amount of crime in general is based in mental illness and substance abuse, and those 2 areas are where we are sorely lacking in care here in the U.S.



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06 Nov 2017, 12:49 pm

It's a mental health issue,we need more access to services and we desperately need to get rid of the stigma of mental illness.
Calling people with mental health problems "losers"does not help,that's part of the reason people don't seek help.You don't call a person with diabetes a loser because they have a bad pancreas.
There is also a disturbing shortage of psychiatrists,some areas underserved,some with too heavy a case load to adequately serve their clients.
http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/d ... .2017.4b24


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The_Walrus
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06 Nov 2017, 2:05 pm

Misslizard wrote:
It's a mental health issue,we need more access to services and we desperately need to get rid of the stigma of mental illness.
Calling people with mental health problems "losers"does not help,that's part of the reason people don't seek help.You don't call a person with diabetes a loser because they have a bad pancreas

Agreed that calling people with mental health problems "losers" is indefensible. Even suggesting that "being a loser" causes mental health issues.

I think blaming crime on mental health issues is wrong. The mentally ill are not criminals-in-waiting. 1 in 3 people has a mental health issue and we're more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators. Most mass murderers are not mentally ill. They are not "other", they are ordinary people.



Misslizard
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06 Nov 2017, 2:33 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
It's a mental health issue,we need more access to services and we desperately need to get rid of the stigma of mental illness.
Calling people with mental health problems "losers"does not help,that's part of the reason people don't seek help.You don't call a person with diabetes a loser because they have a bad pancreas

Agreed that calling people with mental health problems "losers" is indefensible. Even suggesting that "being a loser" causes mental health issues.

I think blaming crime on mental health issues is wrong. The mentally ill are not criminals-in-waiting. 1 in 3 people has a mental health issue and we're more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators. Most mass murderers are not mentally ill. They are not "other", they are ordinary people.

I agree that most crime is committed by criminals,not the mentally ill.
But the desire to kill mass quantities of people you don't know is not normal, not for the mentally ill or nureotypicals.
Most violent criminals have some sort of personality disorder,not the same as bipolar or schizophrenia.
People with personality disorders rarely seek help,usually they don't think they have a problem so even court mandated treatment by a mental health care professional won't help.Most think think they are fine,it's other people they assume are the problem.


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06 Nov 2017, 3:52 pm

Texas Gunman Broke Skull of Infant Stepson in 2012 Assault

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Before a gunman entered a rural Texas church with a ballistic vest and a military-style rifle, killing at least 26 people on Sunday, he was convicted of assaulting his wife and breaking his infant stepson’s skull.

In 2012, while stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, Devin P. Kelley, 26, was charged with “assault on his spouse and assault on their child,” according to the Air Force.

“He assaulted his stepson severely enough that he fractured his skull, and he also assaulted his wife,” said Don Christensen, a retired colonel who was the chief prosecutor for the Air Force. “He pled to intentionally doing it.”

He was sentenced in November of that year to 12 months’ confinement and reduction to the lowest possible rank. After his confinement, he was discharged from the military with a bad conduct discharge. It is unclear whether his conviction would have barred him from purchasing a gun.

The case marked a long downward slide that included divorce and being charged with animal cruelty.

After Sunday’s shooting, friends from New Braunfels, Tex., where he went to high school, expressed shock, remembering how Mr. Kelley was a friendly, if awkward, teenager who in recent years grew so dark that many unfriended him on Facebook.

After Mr. Kelley was discharged from the Air Force in 2014, he remarried in Texas, to Danielle Lee Shields, in April of that year, according to state records.

A few months later, he registered to vote in Colorado Springs — a city with several Air Force bases — listing his address as parking space 60 the Fountain Creek RV Park.

A woman living in a camper next door, who gave her name only as Susan, said a man of similar age and description lived in spot 60 for a few months during that time, but she never learned his name.

“He was kind of off, lived here with a woman,” she said as she loaded blankets into one of the RV park’s washing machines.

“The only thing that sticks out about him was his dog,” she said.

He had a pit bull puppy that he kept tied up in the sun all day outside of his RV, she said. She also recalled an incident in which the police were called because the man had struck the dog in the head.

The police arrived and there was a standoff for approximately an hour, she said, in which her neighbor refused to come out of his trailer.

Records show Mr. Kelley was charged with cruelty to animals, a misdemeanor, in August 2014. The case was dismissed. He moved out a few weeks later, she said.

Friends on Facebook said that in recent years, Mr. Kelley had become vocally anti-Christian, to the point where many stopped communicating with him. His Facebook page, which has been deleted, listed that he liked a number of atheist groups.

“He was always talking about how people who believe in God were stupid and trying to preach his atheism,” one of his Facebook friends, Nina Rosa Nava, posted on the site, saying she unfriended him because of it.


According to local law enforcement, Mr. Kelley had become estranged from his second wife, who at times attended the church.

The cover photo on Mr. Kelley’s Facebook page appears to show a Ruger 8515 rifle, equipped with additional aftermarket products, including a red-dot aiming sight for faster target acquisition and perhaps a two-stage trigger for greater accuracy.

Such rifles have been legal to manufacture and sell to civilians in most of the United States since the federal assault weapons ban expired in 2004, and have become popular among many firearms owners.

Mr. Kelley seemed enamored with the weapon. He posted a photograph of it on Oct. 29 with the caption: “She’s a bad b***h.”

bolding mine for potential motive

Sutherland Springs church shooter didn't have gun license, threatened mother-in-law

Quote:
At a news conference, officials said Kelley had threatened his mother-in-law, who attended the church.
"There was a domestic situation going on within this family," said Freeman Martin, Texas Department of Public Safety regional director. Kelley's mother-in-law "had received threatening texts from him."
Authorities said the attack was not motivated by race or religion.

Earlier Monday, Gov. Greg Abbott suggested that Kelley may have a connection to the Baptist church.
Abbott said on ABC's Good Morning America that "law enforcement is looking very aggressively into this."


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