Sharpiegate
Antrax wrote:
I was explaining my perspective, not arguing against yours. But the thesis seems to be: impeachment is the right thing to do, Trump's norms breaking can't go unchallenged, and that the democratic party needs to show faith in the voters.
On the first part it depends on your philosophical persuasion. If you value intents over outcomes than impeachment is likely the right thing to do. If you value outcomes over intents, than you have to consider the likely outcomes.
On the second part, of Trump's norm breaking can't go unchallenged. This is where things get tricky from an outcomes perspective. It's possible impeachment proceedings weakens Trump. It is also possible it strengthens him from centrist backlash against leftist overreach. The only thing worse than not challenging Trump's norm-breaking is challenging it and losing. If he comes out of impeachment stronger than before and wins an election it validates his norm-breaking. If he loses an election in part because of his norm-breaking than it weakens that behavior.
On the third part, I disagree that the democratic party is anymore short-sighted than the republican party. They both actually seem pretty short-sighted.
On the first part it depends on your philosophical persuasion. If you value intents over outcomes than impeachment is likely the right thing to do. If you value outcomes over intents, than you have to consider the likely outcomes.
On the second part, of Trump's norm breaking can't go unchallenged. This is where things get tricky from an outcomes perspective. It's possible impeachment proceedings weakens Trump. It is also possible it strengthens him from centrist backlash against leftist overreach. The only thing worse than not challenging Trump's norm-breaking is challenging it and losing. If he comes out of impeachment stronger than before and wins an election it validates his norm-breaking. If he loses an election in part because of his norm-breaking than it weakens that behavior.
On the third part, I disagree that the democratic party is anymore short-sighted than the republican party. They both actually seem pretty short-sighted.
I think we're in an era where bold action pays off much more than caution bordering on cowardice. The very fact the House has refused to impeach allows Trump to declare he's been "exonerated". Because as much as we can argue over the obstruction of justice and campaign finance violations (the latter of which even you should at least admit, we have at least probable cause for), if the Democratic House doesn't act when in their partisan interest they should be quite willing to do so if the evidence is sufficient, then it shows the Democrats don't really believe in their accusations, and it's all just political mudslinging. That is much more of a turnoff to independent voters, than taking a stand on your beliefs, something which the Democrats suck at doing. As things occur now, the Democrats are sending mixed messages to voters and showing themselves to be quite wishy-washy indeed. This makes them look weak.
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
beneficii wrote:
I think we're in an era where bold action pays off much more than caution bordering on cowardice. The very fact the House has refused to impeach allows Trump to declare he's been "exonerated". Because as much as we can argue over the obstruction of justice and campaign finance violations (the latter of which even you should at least admit, we have at least probable cause for), if the Democratic House doesn't act when in their partisan interest they should be quite willing to do so if the evidence is sufficient, then it shows the Democrats don't really believe in their accusations, and it's all just political mudslinging. That is much more of a turnoff to independent voters, than taking a stand on your beliefs, something which the Democrats suck at doing. As things occur now, the Democrats are sending mixed messages to voters and showing themselves to be quite wishy-washy indeed. This makes them look weak.
I agree the wishy-washy-ness is a bad look and possibly the worst of all worlds. In my opinion the democrats should table it, focus on their legislative agenda, and win the election. That is the most effective way to discredit Trump. No president today tries to emulate Jimmy Carter, or Herbert Hoover, and if Trump loses that will be his legacy on history. A 4 year mistake.
In my opinion forcing Mitch McConnell to hold up bills like gun-control is a better political strategy than running an impeachment circus that has no chance of working, and could very likely backfire.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 090155001/
Most independents don't want impeachment.
_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."
A thought occurred to me while reading the latest thread about Trump.
I asked earlier in this thread what would be his motive.
I think maybe the situation was that Dorian was one of the few things getting more press coverage than Trump at the time. So Trump put himself squarely back in the spotlight.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York
EzraS wrote:
A thought occurred to me while reading the latest thread about Trump.
I asked earlier in this thread what would be his motive.
I think maybe the situation was that Dorian was one of the few things getting more press coverage than Trump at the time. So Trump put himself squarely back in the spotlight.
I asked earlier in this thread what would be his motive.
I think maybe the situation was that Dorian was one of the few things getting more press coverage than Trump at the time. So Trump put himself squarely back in the spotlight.
Sounds about right.
_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.
