Dara Ó Briain joins protests at rejection of Irish words on

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Pepe
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07 Jun 2020, 5:23 am

Amity wrote:
My understanding would be that as the Irish language was suppressed from early colonial times it came to have a symbolic meaning on many levels.

In living memory, we have "The Troubles in Northern Ireland", the atrocities are still quite raw for many and Republicanism is often associated with the Irish language, perhaps mostly by people not from the country.

In Northern Ireland it would be considered political to refuse the printing of Irish or Ulster Scots on a headstone.

Much the same as it would be unacceptable to refuse the printing of the Welsh language on a headstone in England (also a suppressed language in the past).


Would it be cathartic for you to give a history of the atrocities you are referring to?
I don't know much about it.
I could Google, but I would prefer to relate with you.



kraftiekortie
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07 Jun 2020, 6:27 am

“Danny Boy” was very popular in the US during the 19th/early 20th century.



Pepe
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07 Jun 2020, 6:42 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
“Danny Boy” was very popular in the US during the 19th/early 20th century.


I don't know much about Ireland,
Apart from snake deprivation and pesky leprechauns. :mrgreen:

Oh, Oh!
And my favourite joke:
Q: Why did the Irishman wear 2 condoms?
A: "To be sure, to be sure..." :mrgreen:



naturalplastic
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07 Jun 2020, 6:59 am

Pepe wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
“Danny Boy” was very popular in the US during the 19th/early 20th century.


I don't know much about Ireland,
Apart from snake deprivation and pesky leprechauns. :mrgreen:

Oh, Oh!
And my favourite joke:
Q: Why did the Irishman wear 2 condoms?
A: "To be sure, to be sure..." :mrgreen:


Huh?
Never heard either the joke, nor was aware that Irish folks say that.

Ive heard "why does a Valley Girl take two birth control pills instead of one?" Answer "To be 'for sure, for sure'".



Amity
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07 Jun 2020, 7:32 am

Pepe wrote:
Amity wrote:
My understanding would be that as the Irish language was suppressed from early colonial times it came to have a symbolic meaning on many levels.

In living memory, we have "The Troubles in Northern Ireland", the atrocities are still quite raw for many and Republicanism is often associated with the Irish language, perhaps mostly by people not from the country.

In Northern Ireland it would be considered political to refuse the printing of Irish or Ulster Scots on a headstone.

Much the same as it would be unacceptable to refuse the printing of the Welsh language on a headstone in England (also a suppressed language in the past).


Would it be cathartic for you to give a history of the atrocities you are referring to?
I don't know much about it.
I could Google, but I would prefer to relate with you.


Not so much cathartic, more unnerving, I wouldn't want to do a disservice to either side. Loved ones lost and the cycle of fear, prejudice and discrimination experienced is still a recent memory for many, the Troubles wouldn't be a casual talking point.
To give an overview of why the Irish language has been politicized in this way, is to me very complex and not possible in a post and to do this without bias makes it more difficult again.

Here is an on topic link to an article that will give some context, without becoming overly political or taking the thread in that direction.

The Proceedings of the Barra Ó Donnabháin Symposium, 2007

Earlier this year the Irish language was finally given official recognition in Northern Ireland as part of the restoration of power sharing in Stormont.
Link


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Amity
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07 Jun 2020, 7:51 am

envirozentinel wrote:
They could just add a little asterisk with the English translation as a "footnote" to the headstone....quite easily done.


Indeed and that is what was offered to the family instead of the Irish phrase alone, but the issue is that the judge politicized the Irish language, a continuation of the old way or even a demonstration of support for those who do not want the language to be part of the United Kingdoms native languages. Sure the family could have agreed to a footnote and Im sure if handled differently it might have been a legitimate consideration.


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07 Jun 2020, 7:54 am

Karamazov wrote:
So, unless I’m completely misunderstanding this, the consistory court has, in effect, given the inscription political overtones out of fear that it could be misinterpreted as having political overtones?

When they could have just let it be with little likelihood any random passing stranger would notice, or recognise the inscription as Irish as opposed to Scots Gaelic or Manx if they did?

Well done lads. :roll:


Yes that sums it up I believe :lol:


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07 Jun 2020, 8:29 am

cyberdad wrote:
Amity wrote:
Lol Cyberdad, you have some funny notions about the Irish, cant remember hearing anyone sing that in a pub, I think we learned it as children in school.


You might enjoy this story :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDOoiLx54bc


Some humor in return :)


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07 Jun 2020, 8:51 am

I have not heard of suppressing what is said on a grave stone,what country did this,what jurisdiction did this?I have never heard of a gravestone being censored. :?


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naturalplastic
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07 Jun 2020, 10:17 am

I suppose that ANY message written in some languages might be considered "a political statement" in some parts of the world- just because it's written in that language. Even if it's "Have a nice day". It might be considered provocative in Turkey to have a sign on a store front saying "have a nice day" in either Armenian, or in Kurdish. Just because it's written in either Armenian or in Kurdish, and not in Turkish.

So this "hidden political message" thing maybe just a smokescreen.

A school child saying "have a nice day" in a Native American language could have gotten whipped in the boarding schools for Indians the US had at the turn of the Twentieth Century. And as I understand it: the same was true for Welsh kids saying that in Welsh in Britain at about that same time in history.

So it may not be some "hidden message" that theyre really afraid of. It maybe that the very presence of Gaelic at all, on any edifice, in Ulster is considered a political statement of defiance to the UK, and of loyalty to the Irish Republic to the south- regardless of what the Gaelic words mean.

But I am just guessing.



Karamazov
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07 Jun 2020, 11:28 am

vermontsavant wrote:
I have not heard of suppressing what is said on a grave stone,what country did this,what jurisdiction did this?I have never heard of a gravestone being censored. :?


It’s in the UK: Coventry area (about two and a bit hours drive from where I am).
The jurisdiction in question is the Church if England/diocese of Coventry. The church has very little legal power nowadays, but the erection of buildings and monuments on land it owns is subject to church courts rather than state courts.



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07 Jun 2020, 11:34 am

Karamazov wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I have not heard of suppressing what is said on a grave stone,what country did this,what jurisdiction did this?I have never heard of a gravestone being censored. :?


It’s in the UK: Coventry area (about two and a bit hours drive from where I am).
The jurisdiction in question is the Church if England/diocese of Coventry. The church has very little legal power nowadays, but the erection of buildings and monuments on land it owns is subject to church courts rather than state courts.
I have noticed in English movies and television that cemetery's are often on church grounds.

You don't see this in the US ,cemetery's are private owned.


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07 Jun 2020, 11:47 am

vermontsavant wrote:
Karamazov wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
I have not heard of suppressing what is said on a grave stone,what country did this,what jurisdiction did this?I have never heard of a gravestone being censored. :?


It’s in the UK: Coventry area (about two and a bit hours drive from where I am).
The jurisdiction in question is the Church if England/diocese of Coventry. The church has very little legal power nowadays, but the erection of buildings and monuments on land it owns is subject to church courts rather than state courts.
I have noticed in English movies and television that cemetery's are often on church grounds.

You don't see this in the US ,cemetery's are private owned.


Ah, interesting: didn’t know that. :)
In the UK there are burial grounds owned by the established church, burial grounds owned by non-established churches (and by synagogues, maybe other religions have their own too, but I’ve never seen them), burial grounds owned by the state (local councils not central government), and burial grounds owned by private businesses.



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07 Jun 2020, 11:50 am

Vermont...Theory of mind issue on my part, apologies. Don't know why it didn't occur to me that not everyone would know where Coventry is.

This took place here in England:
Image


Quote:
So it may not be some "hidden message" that theyre really afraid of. It maybe that the very presence of Gaelic at all, on any edifice, in Ulster is considered a political statement of defiance to the UK, and of loyalty to the Irish Republic to the south- regardless of what the Gaelic words mean.

Perhaps in Northern Ireland (parts of Ulster are in the Rep. of Ireland too), particularly in the past it would be seen that way and if this was happening there in the early 1990s there could be a context for the outdated viewpoint, but this has happened in mainland UK, in the center of England to a family that play a very active role in the Irish community there.


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07 Jun 2020, 11:59 am

Maybe they should ask the Irish if they find inscriptions in English in their own country to be "triggering" and political :twisted:


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07 Jun 2020, 12:07 pm

I've spent two days in Coventry some years ago, funnily enough, to meet with an Irish friend. I'll be polite and say I was not impressed, even if it's a huge understatement. Most of my British friends describe it in much less polite terms too :lol:


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