Trump finally reveals his Anti-Semitism.

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funeralxempire
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24 Dec 2021, 2:25 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. One thing I find curious in the US is that it seems that democrats are 'pro-Palestine', and Republicans seem to be 'pro-Israel'. Would this be correct, or is that a reach on my assumption?


I'd say Democrats are mostly pro-two state solution but only a handful could actually be described as pro-Palestine.

The Democratic Party is the other half of the reason why it isn't politically correct for American politicians to speak too critically of Israel, only a handful of them consistently do so.


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DmitriNicholaev
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24 Dec 2021, 2:26 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. One thing I find curious in the US is that it seems that democrats are 'pro-Palestine', and Republicans seem to be 'pro-Israel'. Would this be correct, or is that a reach on my assumption?


That statement is actually untrue because both Democrats and Republicans have a notorious history of both being unequivocal in their support for Israel unconditionally. Recently however a more progressive faction of the Democrats, known as "The Squad", comprising known progressive Democrats Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, AOC, and a few others have gained notoriety for their more critical stance on Israel and support for Palestinian rights, however the The Squad is only a fraction of the Democratic Party and even then deeply criticized for their views on this topic.

Granted it is true on average those who do support Palestine are more likely to be Democratic than Republican



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24 Dec 2021, 2:27 pm

Oh okay. It just seems me to that this Israel/Palestine conflict has gone on where it just seems Petty, and they should just live on their land and do their own thing, but they can just never let it go for some reason, even though it goes back too many years to even hold a grudge nowadays.



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24 Dec 2021, 2:31 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. It just seems me to that this Israel/Palestine conflict has gone on where it just seems Petty, and they should just live on their land and do their own thing, but they can just never let it go for some reason, even though it goes back too many years to even hold a grudge nowadays.


I dont think it's that simple. Palestinians cant live on their land because Israel occupies them, kicks them off their land, builds illegal settlements on their land, demolishes their homes, and forces them to live under a brutal Apartheid like system where they aren't even allowed to travel within their own land without going through oppressive military checkpoints manned by Israeli soldiers who humiliate and mistreat Palestinians on a daily basis.

How do you expect the Palestinians to even live on their land when you have Israeli Jews like this as their neighbors:



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24 Dec 2021, 2:36 pm

DmitriNicholaev wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. It just seems me to that this Israel/Palestine conflict has gone on where it just seems Petty, and they should just live on their land and do their own thing, but they can just never let it go for some reason, even though it goes back too many years to even hold a grudge nowadays.


I dont think it's that simple. Palestinians cant live on their land because Israel occupies them, kicks them off their land, builds illegal settlements on their land, demolishes their homes, and forces them to live under a brutal Apartheid like system where they aren't even allowed to travel within their own land without going through oppressive military checkpoints manned by Israeli soldiers who humiliate and mistreat Palestinians on a daily basis.

How do you expect the Palestinians to even live on their land when you have Israeli Jews like this as their neighbors:



Oh I see. My mistake, I thought that the Palestenian land, they had their own laws, or do they not, and it's all Israel's laws?



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24 Dec 2021, 2:40 pm

ironpony wrote:
DmitriNicholaev wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. It just seems me to that this Israel/Palestine conflict has gone on where it just seems Petty, and they should just live on their land and do their own thing, but they can just never let it go for some reason, even though it goes back too many years to even hold a grudge nowadays.


I dont think it's that simple. Palestinians cant live on their land because Israel occupies them, kicks them off their land, builds illegal settlements on their land, demolishes their homes, and forces them to live under a brutal Apartheid like system where they aren't even allowed to travel within their own land without going through oppressive military checkpoints manned by Israeli soldiers who humiliate and mistreat Palestinians on a daily basis.

How do you expect the Palestinians to even live on their land when you have Israeli Jews like this as their neighbors:



Oh I see. My mistake, I thought that the Palestenian land, they had their own laws, or do they not, and it's all Israel's laws?


Palestine has semi autonomy but ultimately it isn't a true sovereign state since Israel still occupies it, has soldiers stationed within its lands, and ultimately the PLO that's supposed to represent the Palestinian people acts like a dictatorship and Israel's lapdog to keep the Palestinians further under Israel's control since the PLO isn't popular with most of the Palestinians, but they continue to work under Israel's interests. I'm not going to say everything is Israel's fault since reality is more complex than that, but I will say that Israel's military occupation and illegal settlements on Palestinian land prevents this conflict from being solved any time soon.



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24 Dec 2021, 2:42 pm

Oh okay I see. Why does Israel care though, and why not avert more conflict by giving them the land they already have to separate completely?



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24 Dec 2021, 2:54 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Why does Israel care though, and why not avert more conflict by giving them the land they already have to separate completely?


Therein lies the complexity of this conflict. Israel technically won that land by war when it defeated Jordan in the 6 Day War in 1967:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

When it won the West Bank and Gaza after the 6 Day War Israel was put in a tight position: do they formally annex this new won land and allow all of these Arabs to join the state of Israel, which will lead to a demographic imbalance with the burgeoning Arab population surpassing the Jewish population and thus nullifying the premise of a majority Jewish state, or is there a workaround where Israel can keep the land without having to allow all of these Arabs to be citizens of Israel which will then lead to the Arabs outnumbering the Jews? The solution Israel came up was to not annex the land but militarily occupy it: because these lands are under military occupation the residents of these lands dont have any formal civic rights that citizens of Israel have, but because Israel still controls the land they're able to parcel out as much land as they can to Jewish settlers, thus allowing Israel to grow de facto with this proliferation of Jewish settlements.

Part of the mission of the Israeli project was to create a homogenous and contiguous Jewish state in historic Israel, which is all the land from Gaza to the West Bank. The issue was and is that those lands that used to be part of ancient Israel were and are still currently inhabited by Arabs and other Semitic tribes, so Israel has had its hands full trying to find a way to revive the ancient Jewish kingdom of Israel while skirting around international law that says Israel cant just erase all of the Palestinian Arabs living there. On one hand Israel is bound by International Law to formally respect the rights and aspirations of the Palestinians who live on that land, but on the other hand the far right in Israel, as well as even religious fundamentalists in America, want all of Palestine to belong to Israel to conform to Messianic prophecies whereby the state of Israel from Biblical times is resurrected and is given to the jewish people.



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24 Dec 2021, 2:57 pm

Oh okay, so Israel does not want Arabs coming in then you are saying?



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24 Dec 2021, 3:03 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, so Israel does not want Arabs coming in then you are saying?


Israel wants to be the land of the Jewish people. If the majority Arab population in the occupied territories settled in Israel that would create a demographic nightmare where the land that was supposed to be majority Jewish would now have a majority Arab population, therefore Israel is wary of a majority Arab population since that would interfere with the entire premise of Israel: an ethno-nationalist Jewish majority state whose sole purpose is to be the land of the Jewish people.

There are Arabs who live in Israel though, its just that Israel doesnt want that minority population to be a majority.



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24 Dec 2021, 3:05 pm

Oh okay. Well other countries have no problems allowing in immigrants, so why is it a big deal for Israel compared to other countries?



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24 Dec 2021, 3:22 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well other countries have no problems allowing in immigrants, so why is it a big deal for Israel compared to other countries?


Israel does allow some immigrants, but Israel's situation is infinitely different than other countries' situations. Israel, unlike other countries, doesnt have defined borders because Israel is an expansionist state that has as its goal the complete resurrection of the land that used to belong to Israel, which means the West Bank and Gaza, but Israel also wants to be the land of the Jewish people and that means having a majority Jewish population. England, which already has solid borders that are well defined, can choose to import immigrants following certain quotas because there isn't any fear that the population of immigrants will ever truly outnumber the native Britains, despite how much white nationalists fear such a predicament. Israel on the other hand isn't Britain because Israel hasn't realized its ideal state borders, but if Israel were to annex the West Bank and Gaza Israel would now be a majority Arab land, which means its no longer the land of the Jewish people.

Israel isn't like other countries because Israel isn't a civic state, which is a state where the premium is on being a citizen who follows the laws; Israel is an ethno-nationalist state, which means that Israel is primarily the land of the Jewish people and its land is supposed to be majority Jewish. America isn't the land of the White people, but the land of the American people, and American just means a citizen of America who follows the laws and is entitled to full citizenship rights. Israel defines itself as the sole land of the Jewish people, so having an Arab majority would disrupt that end goal and go against the entire premise of a Jewish majority state.



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24 Dec 2021, 3:25 pm

DmitriNicholaev wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well other countries have no problems allowing in immigrants, so why is it a big deal for Israel compared to other countries?


Israel does allow some immigrants, but Israel's situation is infinitely different than other countries' situations. Israel, unlike other countries, doesnt have defined borders because Israel is an expansionist state that has as its goal the complete resurrection of the land that used to belong to Israel, which means the West Bank and Gaza, but Israel also wants to be the land of the Jewish people and that means having a majority Jewish population. England, which already has solid borders that are well defined, can choose to import immigrants following certain quotas because there isn't any fear that the population of immigrants will ever truly outnumber the native Britains, despite how much white nationalists fear such a predicament. Israel on the other hand isn't Britain because Israel hasn't realized its ideal state borders, but if Israel were to annex the West Bank and Gaza Israel would now be a majority Arab land, which means its no longer the land of the Jewish people.

Israel isn't like other countries because Israel isn't a civic state, which is a state where the premium is on being a citizen who follows the laws; Israel is an ethno-nationalist state, which means that Israel is primarily the land of the Jewish people and its land is supposed to be majority Jewish. America isn't the land of the White people, but the land of the American people, and American just means a citizen of America who follows the laws and is entitled to full citizenship rights. Israel defines itself as the sole land of the Jewish people, so having an Arab majority would disrupt that end goal and go against the entire premise of a Jewish majority state.


Oh okay I see. Thank you for explaning. Why don't they just become a nation like the UK for example, if that would mean less conflict? Is just a matter of mere d%^k measuring, rather than wanting to function as an actual nation?

Also, I do not understand how if Israel were to relinquish the Gaza Strip and the West Bank that that would make them more of an Arab population? If they were to give up those areas to Palestinians, wouldn't that mean there are now less Arabs in Israel, since more Arabs would then therefore be gone if that happened?



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24 Dec 2021, 3:49 pm

Another thing, is I don't see how Trumps remarks about Jewish people not caring enough about Israel is anti-semetic of him. If Trump is pro-Israel, than that would make him Pro-semetic, wouldn't it? It sounds to me like he is Pro-semetic, and is harping on American Jewish people for not being as Pro-semetic as him for the Jewish population of Israel. Or at least that is what it seems to come across as to me.



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24 Dec 2021, 4:03 pm

ironpony wrote:
DmitriNicholaev wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well other countries have no problems allowing in immigrants, so why is it a big deal for Israel compared to other countries?


Israel does allow some immigrants, but Israel's situation is infinitely different than other countries' situations. Israel, unlike other countries, doesnt have defined borders because Israel is an expansionist state that has as its goal the complete resurrection of the land that used to belong to Israel, which means the West Bank and Gaza, but Israel also wants to be the land of the Jewish people and that means having a majority Jewish population. England, which already has solid borders that are well defined, can choose to import immigrants following certain quotas because there isn't any fear that the population of immigrants will ever truly outnumber the native Britains, despite how much white nationalists fear such a predicament. Israel on the other hand isn't Britain because Israel hasn't realized its ideal state borders, but if Israel were to annex the West Bank and Gaza Israel would now be a majority Arab land, which means its no longer the land of the Jewish people.

Israel isn't like other countries because Israel isn't a civic state, which is a state where the premium is on being a citizen who follows the laws; Israel is an ethno-nationalist state, which means that Israel is primarily the land of the Jewish people and its land is supposed to be majority Jewish. America isn't the land of the White people, but the land of the American people, and American just means a citizen of America who follows the laws and is entitled to full citizenship rights. Israel defines itself as the sole land of the Jewish people, so having an Arab majority would disrupt that end goal and go against the entire premise of a Jewish majority state.


Oh okay I see. Thank you for explaning. Why don't they just become a nation like the UK for example, if that would mean less conflict? Is just a matter of mere d%^k measuring, rather than wanting to function as an actual nation?

Also, I do not understand how if Israel were to relinquish the Gaza Strip and the West Bank that that would make them more of an Arab population? If they were to give up those areas to Palestinians, wouldn't that mean there are now less Arabs in Israel, since more Arabs would then therefore be gone if that happened?


Israel was created out of a simple premise: to allow the Jews to have national self-determination in their ancestral homeland, and for Israel that ancestral homeland means all the land from Gaza to the West Bank. Israel having control over these territories means that their expansionist project is much closer and closer to being realized, since Israel is able to build settlements in the West Bank and control the military resistance from Gaza by controlling the borders of Gaza, which gives Israel uncontested control over their coveted land to create the historic kingdom of Israel from ancient times. Israel relinquishing this territory would mean no more Jewish settlements, which means the goal of a homogenous Jewish state corresponding to old borders would no longer be possible.

Israel occupying these lands gives them a way to increase Jewish settlement in the land while not having to deal with a demographic nightmare of a majority Arab population in Israel. It is the perfect win win for Israel



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24 Dec 2021, 4:05 pm

ironpony wrote:
Another thing, is I don't see how Trumps remarks about Jewish people not caring enough about Israel is anti-semetic of him. If Trump is pro-Israel, than that would make him Pro-semetic, wouldn't it? It sounds to me like he is Pro-semetic, and is harping on American Jewish people for not being as Pro-semetic as him for the Jewish population of Israel. Or at least that is what it seems to come across as to me.


This may surprise you, but the original Europeans who supported Israel were actually very anti-Semitic and the whole point of the creation of the state of Israel was for the Europeans to deport their Jewish people away from them to a Jewish homeland. That is very anti-Semitic and plays into the trope of Jewish dual loyalty and that Jews arent able to integrate into any land they live in