Preachers to Stand Up to Christian Nationalists.

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Sweetleaf
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04 Jun 2023, 4:18 am

I am no christian but I am glad some of them are making a stand against it, it is after what jesus would probably do based on their ideology. Jesus could probably build something to keep the facists out with his carpenter skills if he was real.


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Persephone29
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04 Jun 2023, 10:50 am

^ the problem with that is that each group thinks it's the other that are the fascists. Each group truly believes they are fighting for what is right, and the other group disagrees.


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04 Jun 2023, 4:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
In all fairness, that's more due to historic church membership than to racism. For instance, African American Baptists will stick with their own doctrinal background, as will Irish Catholics, or German Lutherans. People go to the churches their parents and grandparents went to, which may be a legacy of prejudice, though it shouldn't be taken as an indication of current racism. To be sure, there are certain denominations of a political and theological right wing bent that still cling to bigotry, though I don't believe that includes all churches.


I accept this but but it doesn't change the fact the parish is an echo chamber that reinforces old beliefs.



Kraichgauer
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04 Jun 2023, 7:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
In all fairness, that's more due to historic church membership than to racism. For instance, African American Baptists will stick with their own doctrinal background, as will Irish Catholics, or German Lutherans. People go to the churches their parents and grandparents went to, which may be a legacy of prejudice, though it shouldn't be taken as an indication of current racism. To be sure, there are certain denominations of a political and theological right wing bent that still cling to bigotry, though I don't believe that includes all churches.


I accept this but but it doesn't change the fact the parish is an echo chamber that reinforces old beliefs.


Doubtlessly in certain cases, but I like to think that doesn't apply to all.


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cyberdad
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04 Jun 2023, 11:27 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Doubtlessly in certain cases, but I like to think that doesn't apply to all.


I hope so. The only exception are the Quakers who have my respect.



Fnord
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05 Jun 2023, 1:27 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I am no christian but I am glad some of them are making a stand against it, it is after what jesus would probably do based on their ideology. Jesus could probably build something to keep the facists out with his carpenter skills if he was real.
If I understand the Lord at all, He would likely relate a parable to a large audience that would go over the heads of everyone listening, except the Christian Nationalists -- they would know right away that He was calling them dogs, pigs, and children of Satan, and in much the same way that He insulted the Pharisees.


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05 Jun 2023, 1:29 am

Persephone29 wrote:
^ the problem with that is that each group thinks it's the other that are the fascists. Each group truly believes they are fighting for what is right, and the other group disagrees.
More likely those Christians who are opposed to Christian Nationalism would see the Christian Nationalists as apostate, blasphemous, and/or tools of Satan.


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Fnord
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05 Jun 2023, 1:32 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
In all fairness, that's more due to historic church membership than to racism. For instance, African American Baptists will stick with their own doctrinal background, as will Irish Catholics, or German Lutherans. People go to the churches their parents and grandparents went to, which may be a legacy of prejudice, though it shouldn't be taken as an indication of current racism. To be sure, there are certain denominations of a political and theological right wing bent that still cling to bigotry, though I don't believe that includes all churches.
I accept this but but it doesn't change the fact the parish is an echo chamber that reinforces old beliefs.
Most places of worship (of any faith) I have encountered seem to be this way.  Rarely have I ever encountered a congregation / denomination that encouraged open discussion (or open debate) among its members.


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cyberdad
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05 Jun 2023, 4:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
Most places of worship (of any faith) I have encountered seem to be this way.  Rarely have I ever encountered a congregation / denomination that encouraged open discussion (or open debate) among its members.[/color]


They start young. I recall in Sunday school asking the priest about what exactly is a tree of knowledge? He started trying to explain it to me then realised (half way) that he himself didn't believe what he was saying.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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05 Jun 2023, 5:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:
They start young. I recall in Sunday school asking the priest about what exactly is a tree of knowledge?


There's a place where things go wrong because the tree's actual full name is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, not merely the tree "of knowledge".
https://biblehub.com/parallel/genesis/2-17.htm

Literal tree? Figure of speech tree? Symbolic tree?

Could be.

The takeaway from the event is:
Humanity did something which opened them to knowing evil in addition to good.
And a way to truly know a thing is to do that thing.
And a way to truly know evil is to do evil.
Humanity opened itself to doing evil and has been doing evil ever since.


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05 Jun 2023, 5:25 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Most places of worship (of any faith) I have encountered seem to be this way.  Rarely have I ever encountered a congregation / denomination that encouraged open discussion (or open debate) among its members.[/color]


They start young. I recall in Sunday school asking the priest about what exactly is a tree of knowledge? He started trying to explain it to me then realised (half way) that he himself didn't believe what he was saying.


Luther had once commented on certain Biblical aspects: "You have to take the wheat with the chaff."


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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05 Jun 2023, 5:55 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Luther had once commented on certain Biblical aspects: "You have to take the wheat with the chaff."


Now granted, I don't know every comment Luther made, the only thing relevant I can think of right now is this,
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/lu ... -tares.cfm


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05 Jun 2023, 6:20 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
^ the problem with that is that each group thinks it's the other that are the fascists. Each group truly believes they are fighting for what is right, and the other group disagrees.


The problem there is that too many people define fascist as the people who disagree with me, rather than some sort of objective definition.

Related to that, the people who most closely resemble the traditional definition seem intent on slandering their opponents as fascists, but they also seem to define fascist as synonymous with anti-(our nation) rather than by any connection to nationalist ideology, which makes their definition useless.

Not that they care; fascists win when the term fascist gets watered down to an insult with no substantial connection to the ideology espoused by fascists. The revel in pretending like the term is only an insult and therefore deserve a new label no matter how closely their politics resemble the OG version.


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Persephone29
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05 Jun 2023, 6:27 pm

When I think of a Fascist, I think of someone who thinks that their way is the only way and anyone who doesn't do it deserves to be hurt, killed, ousted, etc...


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funeralxempire
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05 Jun 2023, 6:45 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
When I think of a Fascist, I think of someone who thinks that their way is the only way and anyone who doesn't do it deserves to be hurt, killed, ousted, etc...


That definition would include all sorts of regimes and people with no connection to fascism as an ideology though. It's a good definition for authoritarian, but lots of authoritarian regimes aren't fascist. Henry VIII wasn't a fascist, but he most certainly was an autocrat, an authoritarian and prone to hurting and killing people who disagreed with him (for example).

Personally, I think Dr. Britt and Umberto Eco both offer pretty solid definitions with substantial overlaps. They're not identical, but they're both based on examinations of actual fascist dictatorships, their norms and their policies.

Quote:
Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

The 14 characteristics are:

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


Meanwhile:

Quote:
While Eco is firm in claiming “There was only one Nazism,” he says, “the fascist game can be played in many forms, and the name of the game does not change.” Eco reduces the qualities of what he calls “Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism” down to 14 “typical” features. “These features,” writes the novelist and semiotician, “cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.”

The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”


A fascist isn't someone who resists movements informed by those traits, even if they resist them ferociously and with deadly force.


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05 Jun 2023, 6:52 pm

Totalitarianism - with state control of the means of production, and an ideology of class warfare, is Communism.

Totalitariansim- that retains private property over the means of production, and built upon an ideology, of nationalism, or racism, or religion, militarism, would be fascism. The temptation of fascism is often because it offers to save society from...communism (ie preserve the church, end class warefare, defend tradition, etc).