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Macbeth
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29 Aug 2007, 11:18 am

TheMachine1 wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
If clips are actually promoting and inciting racial hatred, then yes, its a bad thing. However, we enter issues of context. To forget the holocaust and WW2 would be a crime, but censoring or banning all the old evidence of these things will surely have an adverse effect?

Germany already has a ban on all things Nazi, be it memorabilia, regalia, or symbols, but members of far right groups themselves have often said that banning the symbol does not stop the idea. Also, they are quite capable of making up new pseudo-nazi imagery. Germany has also called for their ban to be made Europe-wide.

Therein comes the major issue. The banning of all such things cause a lot of problems. For a start, it covers a great deal of legitimate material that is not pro-nazi. Museum pieces, literature, the film and game industries, all sorts of things. Could they have made Saving Private Ryan if no-one was allowed to have or wear SS collar flashes? Could they have made Schindlers List if Einsatzgruppen hats were banned? Not in Europe they couldnt. As it is, legitimate German films have to be made abroad, and German war films are some of the most accurate and least propogandist movies made. Stalingrad, Downfall, Das Boot.. theres nothing pro-nazi about those.

Anti-jewish films and literature are often utterly shocking, but also push the boundaries of credulity in their attempts to demonise the race. Anyone with a degree of intelligence and a balanced outlook can see it for what it is.. propaganda BS, and the educational value of these pieces is immense, as it makes it so much easier to see how a whole country was fished in to buying "The Jewish Problem".

As for the Landser videos.. havent seen them, so I cant say for definite exactly what military content they have, and in the context of usage by a pro-far right band, yes, its dodgy. However, this does not mean that every usage of such footage by a band makes them pro-right. Plenty of bands will use such footage in an anti-war and anti-nazi sense.

Conclusion: Be wary of context before banning things. Just cause its got Nazi's in it, doesnt mean its pro-nazi.


You must think the moderators are pretty dumb to confuse hate speech with "Schindlers List".


I wasnt talking about banning things HERE.. I meant in the greater context of Germany calling for bans etc. I assumed that WP moderators would already understand the nature of context and the sensible application of bans etc accordingly.

Besides, that wasnt the parallel I was drawing. My point about Schindlers List etc is that when something is banned one way, for what ever reason, it can easily catch a lot of other things in its net. (Example.. since the handgun ban in the UK, the UK Olympic Shooting Team would be criminals if they practised for their sport in the UK, and nobody thinks for a minute they ride round in cars doing drivebys.")


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edal
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30 Aug 2007, 5:00 am

OK, which would be better:

1) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes the post is noticed by a moderator and deleted.

or

2) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes there are twenty replies which disagree with this opinion. by the next day there are a couple of hundred replies, all negative. The new user is never heard from again as he knows his views are not welcome.

Free speech works.

Ed Almos



Macbeth
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30 Aug 2007, 6:46 am

What about Stalinist viewpoints? That whole period of Russian history is liberally dosed with nastiness, only a few degrees below that of the Nazis.

(Actually, wasnt it Stalin who really got into the idea of whitewashing history, deleting old party members that fell out of favour from pictures etc? *Looks at the Com-mod-issars.*)



Yes I'm teasing ;)


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TheMachine1
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30 Aug 2007, 7:03 am

edal wrote:
OK, which would be better:

1) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes the post is noticed by a moderator and deleted.

or

2) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes there are twenty replies which disagree with this opinion. by the next day there are a couple of hundred replies, all negative. The new user is never heard from again as he knows his views are not welcome.

Free speech works.

Ed Almos


Threads in which the original posters says something to trigger alot of negative feedback are usually removed regardless of the topic.



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30 Aug 2007, 12:43 pm

Flagg wrote:
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There are three types of good Nazis - no exceptions

1. Grammar Nazi
2. Soup Nazi
3. Dead Nazi

Any questions?


Yes. Isn't the second one only good in a comedy situation?


Yes, but the soup is sooo good.


That actual guy -- the original "soup nazi" who inspired the Seinfeld episode -- has opened a soup restaurant here in Dallas. He's there, and runs it, and I heard it's called "The Soup Man". I've yet to go, but it's only five miles from my apartment. When Seinfeld did that episode, the real soup guy was actually extremely angry about it -- Jerry came into his restaurant and the guy yelled at him. Jerry said, "What's the problem? I made you famous!" The guy demanded an apology, which Jerry sarcastically offered. Now, years later, the guy has FINALLY figured out that the "Soup Nazi" episode was his ticket to permanent success as a restauranteur.


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Ragtime
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30 Aug 2007, 12:49 pm

edal wrote:
Take a step back here.

My own views are left of center so I'm not likely to agree with the Nazi viewpoint but a right to free speech is still important. This means that Nazis, Communists, Socialists, Republicans and even members of the Monster Raving Lunatic Party all have a right to be heard. After they have stated their case you have a right to disagree.

Comments about dead Nazis do not aid debate.


Well, it's when something is truly "incitement to violence" that it no longer falls entirely under the banner of free speech. That would be if it's clearly meant to spawn crimes, such as against the state or a particular group. Say, if you threaten someone's life publicly, and it's quite clear that you actually mean to murder that person -- such a person will be charged for that, and should be.


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30 Aug 2007, 12:51 pm

Sopho wrote:
edal wrote:
Nazis, Communists, Socialists, Republicans and even members of the Monster Raving Lunatic Party

I don't think you can group socialists in with that lot.


Not to mention Republicans.


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30 Aug 2007, 12:52 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Quatermass wrote:
Flagg wrote:
There are three types of good Nazis - no exceptions

1. Grammar Nazi
2. Soup Nazi
3. Dead Nazi

Any questions?


Yes. Isn't the second one only good in a comedy situation?


Yes, but the soup is sooo good.


That actual guy -- the original "soup nazi" who inspired the Seinfeld episode -- has opened a soup restaurant here in Dallas. He's there, and runs it, and I heard it's called "The Soup Man". I've yet to go, but it's only five miles from my apartment. When Seinfeld did that episode, the real soup guy was actually extremely angry about it -- Jerry came into his restaurant and the guy yelled at him. Jerry said, "What's the problem? I made you famous!" The guy demanded an apology, which Jerry sarcastically offered. Now, years later, the guy has FINALLY figured out that the "Soup Nazi" episode was his ticket to permanent success as a restauranteur.


Oscar the Grouch was based on a rude waitor.


http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Oscar_the_Grouch

Quote:
According to Sesame Street Unpaved, "The character of Oscar was inspired by a nasty waiter from a restaurant called Oscar's Tavern in Manhattan. Jim Henson and Jon Stone were waited on by a man who was so rude and grouchy that he surpassed annoying and started to actually amuse both Jim and Jon. They were so entertained that going to Oscar's Tavern became a sort of masochistic form of luncheon entertainment for them, and their waiter forever became immortalized as the world's most famous grouch."



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30 Aug 2007, 12:55 pm

edal wrote:
OK, which would be better:

1) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes the post is noticed by a moderator and deleted.

or

2) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes there are twenty replies which disagree with this opinion. by the next day there are a couple of hundred replies, all negative. The new user is never heard from again as he knows his views are not welcome.

Free speech works.



How does number 2 look like the better way?


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Ragtime
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30 Aug 2007, 1:06 pm

TheMachine1 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Quatermass wrote:
Flagg wrote:
There are three types of good Nazis - no exceptions

1. Grammar Nazi
2. Soup Nazi
3. Dead Nazi

Any questions?


Yes. Isn't the second one only good in a comedy situation?


Yes, but the soup is sooo good.


That actual guy -- the original "soup nazi" who inspired the Seinfeld episode -- has opened a soup restaurant here in Dallas. He's there, and runs it, and I heard it's called "The Soup Man". I've yet to go, but it's only five miles from my apartment. When Seinfeld did that episode, the real soup guy was actually extremely angry about it -- Jerry came into his restaurant and the guy yelled at him. Jerry said, "What's the problem? I made you famous!" The guy demanded an apology, which Jerry sarcastically offered. Now, years later, the guy has FINALLY figured out that the "Soup Nazi" episode was his ticket to permanent success as a restauranteur.


Oscar the Grouch was based on a rude waitor.


http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Oscar_the_Grouch

Quote:
According to Sesame Street Unpaved, "The character of Oscar was inspired by a nasty waiter from a restaurant called Oscar's Tavern in Manhattan. Jim Henson and Jon Stone were waited on by a man who was so rude and grouchy that he surpassed annoying and started to actually amuse both Jim and Jon. They were so entertained that going to Oscar's Tavern became a sort of masochistic form of luncheon entertainment for them, and their waiter forever became immortalized as the world's most famous grouch."


Ha! That's great! So, I guess Henson pulled a Chaucer? "I will eviscerate you in fiction. Every pimple, every character flaw. I was naked for a day. You will be naked for eternity!" -the character of Geofrey Chaucer in "A Knight's Tale".


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30 Aug 2007, 1:09 pm

Ragtime wrote:
edal wrote:
OK, which would be better:

1) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes the post is noticed by a moderator and deleted.

or

2) A new user creates a post putting forward a Nazi viewpoint. After ten minutes there are twenty replies which disagree with this opinion. by the next day there are a couple of hundred replies, all negative. The new user is never heard from again as he knows his views are not welcome.

Free speech works.



How does number 2 look like the better way?


Maybe because it shows User X up to be a Nazi schweinhund, and people are more aware of it? Or because it gives people a chance to actually prove Nazi ideals wrong with genuine evidence. Or because it shows User X how wrong they are, and may even teach them the error of their ways?

I always hold out hope that even die-hards of one kind or another can change their views if given enough evidence to go on. If we dont have the opportunity to set them right, theyre just going to carry on belieiving things that are often as not dangerous, stupid, or incorrect.

Not to mention the fact that discussing nazi ideology is extremely interesting, a valuable insight into the human psyche at its worst, and an excellent guide to how to spot and avert future governmental "mistakes". History repeats itself, the past echoes the future, if the trains ever run on time your country is doomed and so forth.

Given how much people whine when anyone mentions Nazis and Hitler etc in most forums, endlessly citing that "rule" thing and so on, it does make a change to get a thread where we can mention them without someone quoting that "law of the internet." as well.


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07 Sep 2007, 11:16 pm

TheMachine1 wrote:
If someone post pro-nazi things on WP I will remove it as long as I'm a moderator.


I'm sorry, despite all the other things that he did, Hitler had an awesome mustache. :P


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10 Sep 2007, 3:50 pm

GoatOnFire wrote:
TheMachine1 wrote:
If someone post pro-nazi things on WP I will remove it as long as I'm a moderator.


I'm sorry, despite all the other things that he did, Hitler had an awesome mustache. :P


Awards for best-dressed facist anyone?


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10 Sep 2007, 4:20 pm

Macbeth wrote:
GoatOnFire wrote:
TheMachine1 wrote:
If someone post pro-nazi things on WP I will remove it as long as I'm a moderator.


I'm sorry, despite all the other things that he did, Hitler had an awesome mustache. :P


Awards for best-dressed facist anyone?


It is a little known fact that the reason Hitler had his distinct mustache was because when he was in the army he was ordered to trim it so that it could fit under his gas mask. Here is what he looked like when he still had his original Prussian mustache.

Image

Now the question is, which mustache is better?


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10 Sep 2007, 4:49 pm

I always had a fondness for the prussian facial hair, in much the same way that I find muttonchops amusing. (the 19th century bearded cheeks and moustache, but no chin hair.) Just goes to show, war affects every aspect of life, even the simple moustache. Minus the wax, he would probably have had "morning hair" that resembled ghengis khan.


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