UK Embryo Bill - those with disabilities not fit to live

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techstepgenr8tion
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03 Apr 2008, 8:19 pm

While I definitely don't think we're the next step in evolution I still think a cure is way more practical then all-out weeding (being that the only practical way to make a 'cure' is enhance what's already there so that we become what we'd think of as the better half of the NT world or at least have the option of interacting that way at will - trying to dumb someone down would be completely counterproductive). Especially since autisms becoming more and more prevalent, it doesn't make more sense and it would help to keep autism genes from coagulating as badly. In fact I think learning to correct the gene pool after birth is probably the only way we'll really ever be able to take care of our inherent natural law problem that f's society up as much as it does.



Betzalel
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03 Apr 2008, 11:23 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen boys and girls step right up and view the biggest horror show the world has ever seen.
It's called eugenics and its the wave of the future. It's been around for a long time and since hitler made it infamous It's had to masquerade under various other masks and titles usually in the guise of science always promising to improvie humanity's lot by giving up the purist genetics possible at the expense of untold suffering and cruel inhumanity to man. but never fear we are all just animals after all don't you know so it is only just that the fittest survive and the weak are culled from the gene pool after all Darwin was right don't ya know and we should embrace his world view and help evolution along. now go and do us all a favor by having yoruself sterilized for the betetrment of the human race off ya go now! What?!? you don't want to do the right thing? Then we have no choice but to force you to do so we have passed laws for your own good.


This is why I oppose materialism, atheism and the abolition of religion. my beliefs aside The Human race when it sees itself as nothing more than cattle, when it is not assumed that Humans are something special and have value beyond measure and are endowed by inalienable rights form their creator, when it is assumed that it is man himself who will give and revoke rights. it is so easy to spiral into utter darkness.

History repeats itself and the only lessons learned form history is that nobody ever learns from history.



Vexcalibur
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03 Apr 2008, 11:36 pm

You know they begin with this.

Then they will add "possible aggressive tendency" gene to it.

Slowly fading to:

"Predisposition to #bad thing#"

And later:

"Ugly people"

Eventually:

"genes not belonging to #race#"

Finally:

"Genes that could cause rebellious, non state-obeying attitude"



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Apr 2008, 11:40 pm

Betzalel wrote:
It's called eugenics and its the wave of the future. It's been around for a long time and since hitler made it infamous It's had to masquerade under various other masks and titles usually in the guise of science always promising to improvie humanity's lot by giving up the purist genetics possible at the expense of untold suffering and cruel inhumanity to man. but never fear we are all just animals after all don't you know so it is only just that the fittest survive and the weak are culled from the gene pool after all Darwin was right don't ya know and we should embrace his world view and help evolution along. now go and do us all a favor by having yoruself sterilized for the betetrment of the human race off ya go now! What?!? you don't want to do the right thing? Then we have no choice but to force you to do so we have passed laws for your own good.


Its really nothing new though. Just take a look around; ya think pettiness, competition, and social hierarchy just come from nowhere? True, I don't think we're evolved or civilized enough to make the right choices if we took eugenics into our own hands manually right now but still its a part of our reality that we have to come to grips with and it'll be there whether we choose to dismiss it or not.



Betzalel
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03 Apr 2008, 11:55 pm

Some things we were not meant to meddle in. We may think we are so smart as a species but we really have only proven one thing through out history when we try and play God we usually just do what we do best really muck things up good and proper. It might seem as though we have triumphed over Nature for a while but always the consequences are swept under the rug and ignored until finally they rear their ugly head down the road and a terrible price is paid sometimes generations later. but like I said before we never learn from history because we always assume the people of yesterday are much less developed and educated than we are so they have nothing for us to learn from. sadly there is much to learn from history and not many new ideas are truly new. but everyone wants to think they are brave new pioneers and will succeed where their forbears did not (if they even realize that the previous generations have tried the same thing and failed for the exact same reasons)



tweety_fan
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04 Apr 2008, 1:20 am

another thing that worries me is theraputic cloning. where one child is sick and other embryo is created then designed so that it has a certain blood type, and then that embryo is implanted and the child is born then the cord blood is given to the sick child in order to give it what it needs (stem cells or something).
a good idea in principle but there is a chance that the kid who was designed could end up being nothing more then a living DNA factory for the older one. as in being the one that has to donate blood for the transfusions it may need or donate a kidney or whatever for the term of the older ones sickness or life. i cannot imagine the way one would feel about being in that position. (anger, guilt, resentment, pride who knows what?)



The_Cucumber
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04 Apr 2008, 6:30 am

Well, while I understand the principle. However it still boils down to eugenics. And Eugenics has implications far greater then eliminating disabilities.



GreatCeleryStalk
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04 Apr 2008, 9:29 am

Genetic screening tests for markers for certain things; having a marker doesn't mean the child will eventually have whatever the marker indicates just that the possibility is there.



tweety_fan
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04 Apr 2008, 7:16 pm

good point.



Odin
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04 Apr 2008, 8:27 pm

Betzalel wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen boys and girls step right up and view the biggest horror show the world has ever seen.
It's called eugenics and its the wave of the future. It's been around for a long time and since hitler made it infamous It's had to masquerade under various other masks and titles usually in the guise of science always promising to improvie humanity's lot by giving up the purist genetics possible at the expense of untold suffering and cruel inhumanity to man. but never fear we are all just animals after all don't you know so it is only just that the fittest survive and the weak are culled from the gene pool after all Darwin was right don't ya know and we should embrace his world view and help evolution along. now go and do us all a favor by having yoruself sterilized for the betetrment of the human race off ya go now! What?!? you don't want to do the right thing? Then we have no choice but to force you to do so we have passed laws for your own good.


This is why I oppose materialism, atheism and the abolition of religion. my beliefs aside The Human race when it sees itself as nothing more than cattle, when it is not assumed that Humans are something special and have value beyond measure and are endowed by inalienable rights form their creator, when it is assumed that it is man himself who will give and revoke rights. it is so easy to spiral into utter darkness.

History repeats itself and the only lessons learned form history is that nobody ever learns from history.


How typical, a religious bigot ranting about how us nonbelievers are the cause of all the worlds evils simply because we prefer facts over belief in an imaginary supernatural sky daddy. :roll:

And yes, I did say BIGOT.


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Tequila
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04 Apr 2008, 8:33 pm

Odin wrote:
And yes, I did say BIGOT.


That makes many people bigots as well then. Aside from the religious mumbo-jumbo I have to agree with a lot of what is said. Eugenics is a very dangerous thing. A few major steps the wrong way and we'll be plunged straight back into removing our planet of 'inconvenient' souls.



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04 Apr 2008, 8:36 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
You know they begin with this.

Then they will add "possible aggressive tendency" gene to it.

Slowly fading to:

"Predisposition to #bad thing#"

And later:

"Ugly people"

Eventually:

"genes not belonging to #race#"

Finally:

"Genes that could cause rebellious, non state-obeying attitude"


Nope, it will go the other way. People will voluntarily be genetically engineering themselves and the political pressure from that that will prevent this nonsense from becoming full blown eugenics (which is by definition involuntary). The current trends of technological advancement are towards liberalizing and decentralizing, reversing the centralizing technological trends of 60 years ago.


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Odin
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04 Apr 2008, 8:38 pm

Tequila wrote:
Odin wrote:
And yes, I did say BIGOT.


That makes many people bigots as well then. Aside from the religious mumbo-jumbo I have to agree with a lot of what is said. Eugenics is a very dangerous thing. A few major steps the wrong way and we'll be plunged straight back into removing our planet of 'inconvenient' souls.


I was calling him a bigot because he claimed that secularism is the cause of eugenics and genocide, which is total BS.


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slowmutant
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05 Apr 2008, 9:58 pm

Featherways wrote:
One of the bits of the new Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill that's going through parliament at the moment says that if someone has IVF, the doctors can check the embryos for genetic signs of disability. If they find some, then the embryo can be thrown away.

If they find genetic markers for autism , then those don't get to live. I guess that means they're ok with trying to screen all of us out of existence.
This from the Times newspaper on 16 Mar:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 559306.ece

"Designer babies
It will become legal for doctors to screen out embryos which have disabilities and implant only those free of disease. The law prohibits selecting a disabled embryo if healthy ones are available. "


Can you see how there might be some wisdom to this bill? I doubt it was passed just so they could commit wholesale slaughter of autistic embryos. Get over yourself.



xyzyxx
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05 Apr 2008, 10:09 pm

autism isn't mentioned in the article at all. I doubt autism is what they have in mind when they say "genetic disabilities".



DW_a_mom
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05 Apr 2008, 10:17 pm

Featherways wrote:
One of the bits of the new Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill that's going through parliament at the moment says that if someone has IVF, the doctors can check the embryos for genetic signs of disability. If they find some, then the embryo can be thrown away.

If they find genetic markers for autism , then those don't get to live. I guess that means they're ok with trying to screen all of us out of existence.
This from the Times newspaper on 16 Mar:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 559306.ece

"Designer babies
It will become legal for doctors to screen out embryos which have disabilities and implant only those free of disease. The law prohibits selecting a disabled embryo if healthy ones are available. "


As time goes by, I get more and more uncomfortable with IVF as a process.

I remember years ago, when Pope John Paul II wrote against IVF on moral grounds, basically out of concern over where that foot in the door was going to lead. At the time I found the statement a bit overdone, thinking that IVF was a miracle for those who can't have children, and what was wrong with that?

Well, actually, lots. It has led to many ethical problems. The concept of genetic prescreening is just one more on the list. Not to say I'm ready to close the door on IVF, but I do often wonder about the choices our society is making, and where they are headed.

The longer I live, the more I credit Pope John Paul II with wisdom.


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