Early Whales Had Legs

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ShawnWilliam
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12 Sep 2008, 9:24 pm

jrknothead wrote:

ShawnWilliam wrote:

twoshots wrote:

ShawnWilliam wrote:

show me a whale with legs and i might believe it

Ask and ye shall receive:

The inaccurately named basilosaurus with hind legs (now extinct).

Additionally, leg remnants can be found in the skeletons of modern whales as well.

this doesn't prove anything.. they find bones in a body that look similar to the bone of another creature and assume we are all evolved from something else.. it does seem odd that every creature on this planet is built in pretty much the same way.. what it all boils down to is a test of conscience from God OR true magnum evolution.. if this were solid evidence then it might be enough, but it's not.. have they found a half evolved whale/land animal fossil to prove it?.. no. Mind you also that little bone thing that looks like a foot, don't you think that they might actually NEED it for something?.. like isn't it supposed to be a fin? whales have similar bone structures for fins that look like hands

Ever seen a kid with a cleft palate? How about Dwarfism? Downs Syndrome? Webbed fingers? These are the so-called 'half evolved' organisms you're looking for... A human with all four would look nothing like a 'typical' human, and might be classified as a different species by an observer not familiar with the human race...

you're trying to tell me that midgets and people with down syndrome or webbed fingers are simply harvesting an ancient gene that haven't gone away?..... what about goats that are born with two heads, are they suffering from some evolutionary ancient gene? or someone who's born with extreme deformity?.. of course they don't look freakin human, they're messed up..

jrknothead
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12 Sep 2008, 9:37 pm

Why would the gene need to be ancient? My point is that mutations are common, and some repeat across successive generations... enough repeating mutations will make an organism look completely different from his bretheren, and eventually will differentiate enough to be called a new species...

ShawnWilliam
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12 Sep 2008, 10:05 pm

mutating is not the same as evolution.. evolution is completely different from mutation.. mutation is never a beneficial deformity, but theoretical magnum evolution from it's own viewpoint is from natural selection, so it's the exact opposite.. this way the species only improves for the better, not for the worse.. you can't disprove natural selection because it's very straightforward, but the actual magnum evolution that it suggests is questionable.

jrknothead
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12 Sep 2008, 10:41 pm

Mutation is never a beneficial deformity? I would disagree with that, as I have a quite beneficial mutation... What about your own mutation? Would you call that beneficial?

twoshots
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12 Sep 2008, 10:51 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:

this doesn't prove anything.. they find bones in a body that look similar to the bone of another creature and assume we are all evolved from something else.. it does seem odd that every creature on this planet is built in pretty much the same way.. what it all boils down to is a test of conscience from God OR true magnum evolution..

All so called vertebrates belong to a particular phylum called chordata, and indeed their all actually in the subphylum vertabrata. This accounts for a fraction of the diversity of the world's animals.

Quote:

if this were solid evidence then it might be enough, but it's not.. have they found a half evolved whale/land animal fossil to prove it?

Yes they have. The specimen that is considered to be the closest in-between of aquatic whales and other creatures is the amphibious ambulocetus.

Another, later, intermediary species would be rodhocetus(second down).

Quote:

.. no. Mind you also that little bone thing that looks like a foot, don't you think that they might actually NEED it for something?.. like isn't it supposed to be a fin? whales have similar bone structures for fins that look like hands

Actually, they did need it for something, I believe is the usual opinion on basilosaurus. However, this is not the case for modern whales, as far as I know, who nonetheless possess vestigial hind legs.

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ShawnWilliam
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12 Sep 2008, 11:36 pm

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that's nice, english please?..

and I still don't see how some drawings proves anything.. hell, I could take several pictures of different people and align them in such a way that makes it seem as though it's evolving.. kind of like this one guy in the 19th century showing a fetus going through different stages of developement to make it seem as though it were becoming a different creature.. kind of weird.. but he was arrested for fraud.

twoshots
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12 Sep 2008, 11:41 pm

ShawnWilliam wrote:

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If you knew anything about the science behind this stuff you'd know it wasn't just a bunch of drawings, but I'm clearly wasting my time :roll:

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ShawnWilliam
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12 Sep 2008, 11:57 pm

well I have no desire to get really into it mind you.. but that doesn't mean I have to believe everything I read.. i dont trust the world enough.. everyday lies are spread in magazines and media and it makes me sick.. i have no choice but to question everything or at least choose not to believe it.. that doesn't mean I don't suggest the possibility..
people believe in what they are interested in.

Fuzzy
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13 Sep 2008, 12:38 am

Beneficial mutation does occur.

My friend Darrell has a mutation in which his body produces much more white blood cells than normal. The result is that he does not catch common illnesses like colds and influenza. It is not present in his parents or siblings.

MY moms colleague has a beneficial mutation. He can control each eye separately and can process sensory input from each separately. I do not believe it is present in his sires nor his scions.

A genetic trait that originated as mutation in European populations exists today. A small portion of European descended people are immune or resistant to AIDS, thanks to a mutation that entered the general population in response to smallpox. It allowed resistance to smallpox and has persisted to modern times and also resists AIDS.

These people still carry HIV virus, but it ranges in effect from long delayed symptoms(decades) to complete immunity(well, resistance exceeding natural lifespan).

Details...http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2005/01/66198

The ability to digest cows milk comes from a beneficial mutation, but not everyone has it(I dont/lactose intolerance). It is a benefit in that it allows a mother to wean her child from breast milk earlier.

There are at least one human child with mutations related to muscle growth. Have you ever seen a beef cake baby? You are about to, if you click this link.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6065
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5278028/

I hope that satisfy your inquiries.

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Eggman
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13 Sep 2008, 12:52 am

PunkyKat wrote:

I once heard that whales were the first animals that God created. At first I did not believe this theroy about whales orginaly having legs but then I thought. How do they know that the very first whales God made looked like the whales we have today? God is timeless so maybe His days are diffrent than ours. A million years could be the same as a day to us. No one knows except God Himself.

Me: God how long is a millions years to you?
God: A minute.
Me: God how much is a million dollars to you?
God: A penny.
Me: God may I have a penny?
God: In a minute.

jrknothead
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13 Sep 2008, 2:34 am

Eggman wrote:

PunkyKat wrote:

Me: God how long is a millions years to you?
God: A minute.
Me: God how much is a million dollars to you?
God: A penny.
Me: God may I have a penny?
God: In a minute.

Reminds me of an old joke I heard... aaah, nevermind...

Prof_Pretorius
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15 Sep 2008, 10:44 am

Poppycock ! !

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ShawnWilliam
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15 Sep 2008, 11:13 am

Fuzzy wrote:

Ok ok ok.. that's micro evolution, not macro evolution.. it's very small and it isn't proof.. it's just a symptom of something, but you don't know of what..

here's a great debate between evolutionists and creationsists... you learn a lot from debates.. as it so happens, some evolutionists have a hard time holding up their end of the debate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m9Wabr2 ... re=related

monty
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17 Sep 2008, 10:48 am

ShawnWilliam wrote:

You obviously are not aware of what evolution is: (Mutation/Selection)^n

Add a few other things like genetic drift and geographic isolation, and this theory goes a long way in explaining patterns of life.

The genes for sickle cell anemia and thalassemia are mutations that are both beneficial AND harmful - a double dose of the mutated gene is highly lethal - that person is typically never born. With one copy of the mutation, blood cells are changed in a way that confers increased resistance to malaria, but also increased risk of blood clots, kidney damage, etc. Guess where these genes are most common ... in areas where malaria has long been present.

ShawnWilliam
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17 Sep 2008, 11:41 am

monty wrote:

ShawnWilliam wrote:

interesting.. classify it as evidence then, because that's what it is. you call it proof, but proof = seeing it happen... you need to hop into a little time machine and go back in time and watch animals evolve into something else.

Prof_Pretorius
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17 Sep 2008, 12:06 pm

Consider that the simplest mutation can prove fatal, not an improvement.
We've all seen white tigers. Their beautiful coat is a tiny mutation in the gene governing coloration. But they only live in captivity. In the wild they starve to death. The lack of yellow in their coat robs them of the ability to hide. The water buffalo says "hey! there's a white tiger in those grasses, I'm off." A simple mutation that is not an improvement.

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