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dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 11:54 am

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

You ask him to define it, and then you put words in his mouth by defining it for him.

I didn't "put words in his mouth," I merely suggested two possible definitions. He is free, and in fact encouraged, to provide his own definition.

Quote:

You don't know anything about economics if you call it a zero-sum game

I never said that economics is a zero-sum game; many economic situations are obviously not zero-sum. I was simply attempting to dispel the myth that appears to underlie communism: that one can "win" without at least one other person "losing."

Last edited by dmm1010 on 16 Dec 2011, 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cubedemon6073
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16 Dec 2011, 11:56 am

dmm1010 wrote:

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

You ask him to define it, and then you put words in his mouth by defining it for him.

I didn't "put words in his mouth," I merely suggested two possible definitions. He is free, and in fact encouraged, to provide his own definition.

Quote:

You don't know anything about economics if you call it a zero-sum game

I never said that economics is a zero-sum game; many economic situations are obviously not zero-sum. I was merely attempting to dispel the myth that appears to underlie communism: that one can "win" without at least one other person "losing."

Are you saying there can never be a win-win?

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 12:11 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Are you saying there can never be a win-win?

If I mine copper I've deprived the rest of the human race of some of that resource. If I give you some of my copper and I receive lead in return we may both "win," but everyone else has "lost."

Communism would forcibly divide the copper and lead, and therefore the "gain" and "loss," evenly amongst everyone.

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 12:27 pm

dogslife wrote:

dmm1010 wrote:

if the American Dream is that each generation can do subjectively "better" than the previous, then I believe this is an achievable goal for most people.

How is this true when income inequality among households has been increasing significantly since the late 1970s? Only the ultra-rich are doing financially better than previous generations; everyone else is, overall, much worse off.

According to the Congressional Budget Office: “As a result of uneven income growth, the share of total after-tax income received by the 1 percent of the population in households with the highest income more than doubled between 1979 and 2007, whereas the share received by low- and middle-income households declined..."

I said I believed it to be an achievable goal. I didn't say I know it's occurring.

marshall
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16 Dec 2011, 12:58 pm

dmm1010 wrote:

If there are guaranteed "losers" then what is expected? Do you people expect the "losers" to have to live on the streets and beg?

Also, you're not dispelling any myth. You are merely proclaiming things with no logic to back them up.

A study of game theory shows that mutual self-interested competition generally does not produce the optimal outcome for the individual. The prisoners dilemma illustrates this point. It is in each individuals best interest to play cut-throat, but if everyone plays cut-throat the outcome is worse than if everyone cooperates. Of course cooperation only works if everyone agrees to it. This is the basis of human morality.

There are also examples in nature where competition is not completely beneficial. In some elk populations, males evolved massive antlers in order to successfully fight for females. Its an example of an "arms race". Yet this arms race is not beneficial for the elk population as a whole when there are predators because the antlers prevent the male elk from being able to maneuver through thick vegetation.

If fact, the financial innovations and buildup to the sub-prime mortgage crisis can be seen as a type of financial arms race.

MarcusTulliusCicero
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16 Dec 2011, 1:14 pm

dmm1010 wrote:

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

You ask him to define it, and then you put words in his mouth by defining it for him.

I didn't "put words in his mouth," I merely suggested two possible definitions. He is free, and in fact encouraged, to provide his own definition.

Quote:

You don't know anything about economics if you call it a zero-sum game

And again this is laughable when you consider the existence of GDP growth and its actual effect on the general welfare of human kind. You didn't suggest two possible definitions anything. You just answered your own question by producing some hyper-distorted example that you could then plant on him to show him in a bad light.

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 1:29 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

On the page to which you've linked, James Truslow Adams is said to have defined the American Dream as "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement." Is this true at the moment? Well, no, not so much. Needless to say the economy is a bit of a mess right now.

Quote:

This means what you are saying is there are those who will never succeed no matter how hard they try. Is this correct? [...]

I don't know. It's somewhat dependent on how you define "success." Success is actually subjective; for example, not everyone aspires to make a million dollars or more. Will there be people who can't find a job? I would imagine so. I can't see how a job could be guaranteed for every person, much less a job he or she would want.

Quote:

What is not told as part of the package is working hard will not guarantee success. This is what was told to students as well. Students were not given the fine print of obtaining a job which is a degree from college is not the bottom. There are other things which was never told to them. One thing is employers do not want newbies or rookies for the most part. They want those with experience. I've always thought there were jobs which only required the degree and no experience. This is what was promoted as the bottom of the bucket. [...]

Employers are reluctant to hire new graduates without applicable work experience and I do see this as a problem.

Last edited by dmm1010 on 16 Dec 2011, 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 1:31 pm

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

Sigh. If that's what you want to believe, so be it.

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 1:54 pm

marshall wrote:

If there are guaranteed "losers" then what is expected? Do you people expect the "losers" to have to live on the streets and beg?

Of course not. Let's equalize, by force, everyone's standard of living regardless of the value of their labor. :roll:

Quote:

Also, you're not dispelling any myth. You are merely proclaiming things with no logic to back them up.

Did you just describe my argument as illogical? Ouch, that hurts.

Quote:

A study of game theory shows that mutual self-interested competition generally does not produce the optimal outcome for the individual. The prisoners dilemma illustrates this point. It is in each individuals best interest to play cut-throat, but if everyone plays cut-throat the outcome is worse than if everyone cooperates. Of course cooperation only works if everyone agrees to it. This is the basis of human morality.

There are also examples in nature where competition is not completely beneficial. In some elk populations, males evolved massive antlers in order to successfully fight for females. Its an example of an "arms race". Yet this arms race is not beneficial for the elk population as a whole when there are predators because the antlers prevent the male elk from being able to maneuver through thick vegetation.

If fact, the financial innovations and buildup to the sub-prime mortgage crisis can be seen as a type of financial arms race.

The prisoner's dilemma doesn't apply to all, or even most, economic situations. Your second example appears to be a straw-man, given that I'm arguing against a purely cooperative economy rather than in favor of a purely competitive one.

androbot2084
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16 Dec 2011, 2:04 pm

people should be paid according to their needs.

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 2:12 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

people should be paid according to their needs.

How do you define "needs"?

MarcusTulliusCicero
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16 Dec 2011, 3:08 pm

dmm1010 wrote:

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

You didn't suggest two possible definitions anything. You just answered your own question by producing some hyper-distorted example that you could then plant on him to show him in a bad light.

Sigh. If that's what you want to believe, so be it.

dmm1010 wrote:

Please define the "American Dream." If it's that everyone who works hard enough can be Bill Gates or Sam Walton then yes, this is obviously false. In spite of what you may have heard elsewhere, life on a planet with limited resources is a zero-sum game.

Oh yes, nice trick saying 'if you believe believe it then so be it,' as if you have any actual reason to be exasperated

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 3:16 pm

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

dmm1010 wrote:

Oh yes, nice trick saying 'if you believe believe it then so be it,' as if you have any actual reason to be exasperated

Did you happen to notice the word "if" in the text you've quoted? I didn't attempt to "plant" anything on anyone. I have no intention of arguing this further. As I said, believe what you like.

MarcusTulliusCicero
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16 Dec 2011, 3:24 pm

dmm1010 wrote:

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

dmm1010 wrote:

Oh yes, nice trick saying 'if you believe believe it then so be it,' as if you have any actual reason to be exasperated

Did you happen to notice the word "if" in the text you've quoted? I didn't attempt to "plant" anything on anyone. I have no intention of arguing this further. As I said, believe what you like.

Ah, of course! As if it were a valid example of the american dream to begin with. Try not to discuss it at your will. Fact is along with accusing someone of 'harassment' that's a nice way of cutting people off

dmm1010
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16 Dec 2011, 3:54 pm

MarcusTulliusCicero wrote:

I have no need to cut you off. However, it seems like a waste of everyone's time for us to argue this point when you've apparently already made up your mind. The example I gave could indeed be someone's interpretation of the American Dream. I've conversed with more than one person who ostensibly took it to mean almost exactly that. In fact the belief that hard work guarantees success, if taken literally, is synonymous with my example. I'm not sure why you refer to harassment. I haven't accused you, or anyone else, of it.

MarcusTulliusCicero
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16 Dec 2011, 4:29 pm

dmm1010 wrote:

However, it seems like a waste of everyone's time for us to argue this point when you've apparently already made up your mind.

Oh another classic trick! I am obviously set in my opinion. This is coming from the guy who said that whatever I think, he doesn't care

If you had actually shown the possibility of feeling wrong about presumtuously answering your own questions then I would have been on your side again. But please, dig your own grave

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