transgender student OKed for locker room access

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Yes, and you believe that only because you refuse to acknowledge the extensive scientific research and medical knowledge that proves you wrong. I notice that you refuse to even mention all the evidence provided in this thread that refutes your claim that trans women aren't real women. Can you explain why you still believe that trans women aren't women even though medical science completely disagrees with you and disproves what you believe? Are you saying you know better than all the doctors and researchers who have studied transgender people?

Bathrooms/changing rooms are not designed for male or female forms - used both, only difference is urinal/tampon machine. Also female bathrooms/changing rooms tend to be cleaner.

I would also like to point out that stopping her from using the female bathroom based on her genetalia is discrimination. To be very crude, dicks are not vagina seeking missiles. They're not parasitic entities that act independantly of thought, no-one is ever dragged around the place by an interested penis. Assuming that having a penis makes them a danger to other people in the room is kind of offensive to both men and trans people. The acts of a penis rely on the person it is attached to - if someone is being creepy in the changing room, you treat them like everyone else and call security. Plus at her age, it's unlikely that they wont be changing without the presence of an attendant or a teacher, which means any misbehaviour can easily be reported.

"Never seen the male form" - To be honest, most children have seen it, either their fathers or their brothers by mistake, and it's only a small minority that hasn't. I would be very suprised if someone has never accidentally seen their parents/brothers naked. Also, the wouldn't see the male form unless they were watching people change. Or the trans person stood on a bench and waggled everything around. Both come under "creepy behavior" and can be reported.

(And if someone is really uncomfortable potentially seeing a different genital arrangement [and/or can't stop looking], they can always use a stall. They are truly in a small minority here.)

Also to the men comparing her using a changing room to themselves using the changing room, consider why you want to use the female changing room. Are you using the changing room to change in comfort and peace, or do you want to go in the changing room to see naked women/impose on a female space? Your reasoning for going in there are probably very different to why she wants to go in there.

I have met big burly trans women and I and co-workers considered them to be women.

You can't trust the bone and flesh to know the person on the "inside".

You point out a wonderful definition of, "prejudice": Judging someone based on a group they belong to, rather than something they have actually done.
Seems to me that goes against all those values I was taught as a child that America stood for.
These "fears" are all based on irrational scare tactics. They blame all trans women for future crimes they haven't committed and worse still, statistically never will commit.

Yes, and you believe that only because you refuse to acknowledge the extensive scientific research and medical knowledge that proves you wrong. I notice that you refuse to even mention all the evidence provided in this thread that refutes your claim that trans women aren't real women. Can you explain why you still believe that trans women aren't women even though medical science completely disagrees with you and disproves what you believe? Are you saying you know better than all the doctors and researchers who have studied transgender people?

I don't see anyone else in this thread having to post proof on this issue, yet I must?!?

If your "proof" is referring to the articles linked by Edenthiel. That isn't any proof dealing with this issue, only "so called proof" dealing with the "transgender condition".

Transgender people know that their "proof" isn't known nor seen by everyone, nor may it ever be. Transgender people see this issue differently from most non transgender people, you know this. It seems to me that you'd be a bit more understanding when others don't see things your way.

I don't expect to change any minds here, nor will my mind be changed by anyone here. I have been trying to understand your position, though I doubt anyone here will see it that way. No biggy.

Why do all my posts get twisted around to be something that I didn't even say? I wasn't arguing anything close to this, nor implying anything close to it either.

Again, not everyone sees the human form the same way. We've been separating the sexes for quite a long time. It's not discrimination to do so. It's the way it's been all my life and farther back than that. It seems to me that under your argument we may as well all use the same room. Obviously not everyone will be comfortable in doing so, and rightfully so. Lawyers would be working overtime should something like this ever come about lol.

Well, if you're going to try to argue that trans women aren't real women but then provide no actual evidence to back that argument up, while simultaneously admitting that you refuse to examine the evidence provided for the other side of the argument (that medical science believes that trans women are indeed women), how can you expect us to consider your argument as valid? How can you yourself believe your argument is valid if you have no evidence to back it up and you know that you don't have any evidence? You do know that's not how arguments work, right? If you're going to try to tell trans people how they should act and what their rights are, you have to inform yourself about transgender people with the available evidence--otherwise all you are doing is professing ignorance and calling it your opinion (which is, admittedly by you, not informed by any actual evidence).

Do you have any evidence to back up this claim that the scientific research in the articles listed by Edenthiel is flawed? Do you somehow know more about transgender people than the doctors and researchers who study them? If so, can you tell us how you came to be so knowledgable about this issue: did you go to medical school and study it yourself?

Transgender people won't argue with you unless you use their pronouns/words, their "evidence", their etc., etc., etc. . And somehow I don't know how arguments work?!?

Do you understand the scientific method, and how research is carried out? It's not "their" evidence, it's just evidence--can you provide some legitimate reason why you don't trust the science behind the research into transgenderism? Do you have any evidence to demonstrate that the research was done improperly or poorly, or with bias and not empirically?

So, if this were about religion and I were the atheist, you're saying that I must go read the bible before I could be believed. You don't see the problem with that kind of argument?

This is all way off topic. Believe me or don't. The choice is yours, so is my choice not to read your "evidence". I can accept that, I don't believe you can.

In regards to your analogy, it is a false analogy because we are talking about something that can be proved with science (that transgender people are real), while the existence of God can neither be proven or disproven with science (as far as our current technology and knowledge tells us, anyway). Also, the Bible is not scientific evidence because it's not derived from scientific research.

So I should believe you that trans women aren't women, despite the fact that you present no evidence to back up this argument and you admittedly refuse to even look at the scientific evidence to the contrary? How is that a legitimate argument for anything? Your refusal to look at the scientific evidence is making it extremely difficult to believe that you are arguing in good faith and with intellectual honesty.

Edit: double post.

Your insistence that I read your "evidence" falls right in line with my argument that transgender people won't listen to anyone else and want everything their way. Besides, if you look at it from my side. What if I go read this "evidence" and still decide that it's a load of crap, what then? We argue from there over "your evidence". That's swaying the whole argument in your direction. You're now in control of the argument. That's not how these things work.

Maybe I should ask you to read a book for me before we continue. Green Eggs and Ham should help to catch you up to speed.

We'd been separating races for quite a long time before we stopped doing so. Was that not discrimination, then? It's the way it had been all the life of anyone commenting on the situation back then, and farther back than that.



There are also people, like me, who have often felt uncomfortable sharing a locker room with people of their own sex and gender. I can't tell whether my discomfort was "rightfully so", however, because I'd expect to be laughed at and told to man up if I complained. Who gets to decide who is right in feeling uncomfortable and who isn't?