Board index › General Discussion › News and Current Events

Shooting at LGBT nightclub in Florida, 20 injured

Page 12 of 19 [ 297 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 19  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Lukeda420
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,640
Location: Chicago suburbs.

13 Jun 2016, 2:07 pm

docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?


The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.



redrobin62
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Apr 2012
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,009
Location: Seattle, WA

13 Jun 2016, 2:13 pm

The Nazis are absolutely free to march into my neighborhood. Marching out, however, is a completely different matter.


_________________
One Day At A Time.
His first book: http://www.amazon.com/Wetland-Other-Sto ... B00E0NVTL2
His second book: https://www.amazon.com/COMMONER-VAGABON ... oks&sr=1-2
His blog: http://seattlewordsmith.wordpress.com/


nurseangela
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,017
Location: Kansas

13 Jun 2016, 3:13 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/US/clinton-calls- ... d=39812793

So profiling and going after the guns is the plan. I suppose that profiling is ok, though, as long as it's the Left who is doing it.


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,245
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

13 Jun 2016, 3:18 pm

gingerpickles wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With Cruz and Trump taking this opportunity to bash Muslims for attacking gays - and even seemingly to defend gays - I have to wonder when extremists on the right will start saying that those evil, evil gays in Florida had it coming.

You sure love throwing everything in the same bag. I usually ignore you. But really putting both Cruz and Trump as anti-gay?

And technically neither is "anti-gay" ESPECIALLY Trump. So in your world view if someone does not condone or support something they are ANTI. (Though Crudz and Hillbillary have supported some really horrid anti gay regimes overseas)

And all extremists with anti gay views will make bad comments. You are right. That proves what?

So will you ignore 15000 msg of condolence and good will so you can whip out those 100 in 15k nasty people that say they deserve death and call them typical Christian. And hold them up as the word of the religion? But give muslims a free pass as a group no matter what a majority believe?
Conservatives you bash in every other thread... how many homegrown terrorists were card carrying republicans?(I can only think of one) and what percentage do they make up of the whole?

And then again there are people posting on social media in support of the creepy looking kook that shot that gameshow singer. Are they right wing? conservative? religious nuts?

There are people who told Selena Gomez to die just because she broke up with Bieber <_< were those http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-new ... re-2014147
And that proves... ?

That there are people are horrid and when anonymous they say some nasty Shiet. But Gay bashing on line does NOT mean automatic bombing of a Pride Parade.

Radicalization of unstable people is a problem. In name of Govt, Religion or Social Justice.


As I fancy myself a Christian, I've never bashed "typical Christians," only Christian extremists.
As for Cruz and Trump: Cruz, from his regional and religious background is definitely anti-gay, as is his voting record, while Trump courts people who are anti-gay.
You can feel free to keep ignoring me.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

13 Jun 2016, 3:29 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?


The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.


This is more than just allowing stupid Illinois Nazis march thru a Jewish neighborhood in the name of free speech, Nazism is a dead ideology following dead leader whereas radical Islam is an active movement that wishes to destroy western civilization. It would be more akin to letting Nazis march in America while we were at war with them. It's more than just a religion, it is a political ideology and one every bit as destructive as those of the 20th century.



Lukeda420
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,640
Location: Chicago suburbs.

13 Jun 2016, 3:46 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?


The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.


This is more than just allowing stupid Illinois Nazis march thru a Jewish neighborhood in the name of free speech, Nazism is a dead ideology following dead leader whereas radical Islam is an active movement that wishes to destroy western civilization. It would be more akin to letting Nazis march in America while we were at war with them. It's more than just a religion, it is a political ideology and one every bit as destructive as those of the 20th century.


Naziism definitely is not dead. They have a thriving community over at stormfront. Skinhead groups are actually very common in this country and Europe. Also this happened in the seventies in a neighborhood with an extremely high number of holocaust survivors. The horror of the Nazis were still very fresh in peoples minds.

Besides that was a response to a specific question and you seemed to have missed some details.



docfox
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 90
Location: Pennsylvania

13 Jun 2016, 4:10 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?


The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.

The U.S used to not allow emigration from these countries period without special circumstances.

Japan/Korea/China/to a lesser extent Russia STILL do not allow emigration from these countries period.

There is no such thing as a 'right to emigrate'. Hell, even more liberal countries like Canada won't let you in unless you have a skill needed for the Canadian economy.

Also Lukeda, I don't think you understood my analogy.

I am not talking about letting Nazi's in America do Nazi things, I'm talking about during the 1930's, would you consider it moral for the U.S to let people from Nazi Germany (who would be, statistically, likely to share Nazi party values - I'm talking about white germans not jews here) emigrate to the U.S and become citizens?

Even if the majority of these people had anti-semite beliefs, you'd still let them emigrate if they weren't directly involved in the violence themselves?

How would that affect the U.S's decision to go to war with Nazi Germany if a bunch of German citizens lived in the U.S?


_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's DSM IV ~2003.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,245
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

13 Jun 2016, 4:27 pm

docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?


The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.

The U.S used to not allow emigration from these countries period without special circumstances.

Japan/Korea/China/to a lesser extent Russia STILL do not allow emigration from these countries period.

There is no such thing as a 'right to emigrate'

Also Lukeda, I don't think you understood my analogy.

I am not talking about letting Nazi's in America do Nazi things, I'm talking about during the 1930's, would you consider it moral for the U.S to let people from Nazi Germany (who would be, statistically, likely to share Nazi party values - I'm talking about white germans not jews here) emigrate to the U.S and become citizens?

Even if the majority of these people had anti-semite beliefs, you'd still let them emigrate if they weren't directly involved in the violence themselves?

How would that affect the U.S's decision to go to war with Nazi Germany if a bunch of German citizens lived in the U.S?


There was in fact immigration of Non-Jewish Germans to America, right up to Hitler declaring war on the US, as it was widely understood that not only Jews wanted to escape Nazism.
And sadly, the truth is Jews were much less likely to get to come to America. A whole ship load of Jewish refugees sought safety in America, and were turned away, only to die in a concentration camp. Antisemitism was alive and well in America in those days, too.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


docfox
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 90
Location: Pennsylvania

13 Jun 2016, 4:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?


The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.

The U.S used to not allow emigration from these countries period without special circumstances.

Japan/Korea/China/to a lesser extent Russia STILL do not allow emigration from these countries period.

There is no such thing as a 'right to emigrate'

Also Lukeda, I don't think you understood my analogy.

I am not talking about letting Nazi's in America do Nazi things, I'm talking about during the 1930's, would you consider it moral for the U.S to let people from Nazi Germany (who would be, statistically, likely to share Nazi party values - I'm talking about white germans not jews here) emigrate to the U.S and become citizens?

Even if the majority of these people had anti-semite beliefs, you'd still let them emigrate if they weren't directly involved in the violence themselves?

How would that affect the U.S's decision to go to war with Nazi Germany if a bunch of German citizens lived in the U.S?


There was in fact immigration of Non-Jewish Germans to America, right up to Hitler declaring war on the US, as it was widely understood that not only Jews wanted to escape Nazism.
And sadly, the truth is Jews were much less likely to get to come to America. A whole ship load of Jewish refugees sought safety in America, and were turned away, only to die in a concentration camp. Antisemitism was alive and well in America in those days, too.


I haven't done that much research on this, but I don't believe there was that much emigration of white germans. There was plenty of jewish emigration though because the Nazi Party actually encouraged it up into about 1938-1939.


_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's DSM IV ~2003.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

13 Jun 2016, 4:55 pm

You know, no one seems to be asking yet if the shooter actually did all the damage himself, or if someone of the deaths were due to police gunfire. He was there for a while, and I know it's been reported that the police tried to storm the place at least once, so I'm wondering if it might come out in the future that the police inadvertently did some of the killing.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

13 Jun 2016, 5:03 pm

Dox47 wrote:
You know, no one seems to be asking yet if the shooter actually did all the damage himself, or if someone of the deaths were due to police gunfire. He was there for a while, and I know it's been reported that the police tried to storm the place at least once, so I'm wondering if it might come out in the future that the police inadvertently did some of the killing.

Nah, statistically speaking, they would have missed all the targets.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

13 Jun 2016, 5:07 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Nah, statistically speaking, they would have missed all the targets.


That's what I'm afraid of...

I'd rather be shot at by the cops than be near someone being shot at by the cops, much less dangerous.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Nicola2206
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 10 Sep 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 97

13 Jun 2016, 5:18 pm

I was diagnosed bipolar. I do have mental issues. His ex wife talked about him being bipolar and unstable. It pisses me off, just as much as the "he was autistic" folks. Nice way to demonize the mental health community and the ASD community. Nice way to shift the blame away from RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM (Islamic in this case), hatred and homophobia.
I'm a religious person but I speak against religious extremism of any kind.


_________________
Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 173 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 32 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)

AQ Score: 40

SQ: 52
EQ: 5

Empathizing - systemizing mixed test version results


Lukeda420
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,640
Location: Chicago suburbs.

13 Jun 2016, 5:23 pm

Docfox,

Your analogy doesn't work for me. We are not at war with Islam like we were with Nazi Germany. The threat is too amorphous to treat it like we would an enemy state. It's perfectly reasonable to restrict immigration from a country you're at war with but we're at war with a radical ideology not a country.

The other thing is because a lot of innocent people are becoming refugees due to Isis and I think we do have a moral obligation to do what we can to provide relief. Especially since the chaos in the region was largely caused by us.

What I was saying is I don't see a way to legally prevent someone from entering this country for their personal beliefs unless we can show a imminent potential for harm, which isn't always easy to spot.

And hey we interned the Japanese for that reason, and it's been largely agreed upon that is was one of our bigger mistakes.



nurseangela
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2014
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,017
Location: Kansas

13 Jun 2016, 5:23 pm

Just on the news:

Hilliary blocked investigation.

http://conservativebrief.com/breaking-h ... rs-mosque/


_________________
Me grumpy?
I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


docfox
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jun 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 90
Location: Pennsylvania

13 Jun 2016, 5:45 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Docfox,

Your analogy doesn't work for me. We are not at war with Islam like we were with Nazi Germany. The threat is too amorphous to treat it like we would an enemy state. It's perfectly reasonable to restrict immigration from a country you're at war with but we're at war with a radical ideology not a country.

The other thing is because a lot of innocent people are becoming refugees due to Isis and I think we do have a moral obligation to do what we can to provide relief. Especially since the chaos in the region was largely caused by us.

What I was saying is I don't see a way to legally prevent someone from entering this country for their personal beliefs unless we can show a imminent potential for harm, which isn't always easy to spot.

And hey we interned the Japanese for that reason, and it's been largely agreed upon that is was one of our bigger mistakes.


French police are currently raiding a house owned by a police officer. Right now. The home owner, a police officer, was stabbed to death by a muslim man shouting in islamic. He's currently holding the police officer's family hostage.

https://www.rt.com/news/346550-paris-po ... -hostages/

Also, my ideology was explicitly before we declared war on Germany.

Quote:
Especially since the chaos in the region was largely caused by us.

The radical views I mention have been held by this region of the world for decades if not centuries. This is not a new thing, neither is islamic terrorism. What has increased it is our interventions that toppled governments that suppressed these groups.

Quote:
What I was saying is I don't see a way to legally prevent someone from entering this country for their personal beliefs unless we can show a imminent potential for harm, which isn't always easy to spot.

So if I personally believe all Americans should die a fiery death, but don't show a immediate potential for harm, it's my right to enter the U.S?


_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's DSM IV ~2003.