[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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Misslizard
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11 Oct 2023, 3:30 pm

rse92 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Jakki wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Good article from Jewish Voice for Peace.
The root of violence is oppression.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/202 ... ceid=78272


Thank You ,Misslizard for posting this..think it is very poignant in understanding the reality of the Situations presented to people . In this So called very one sided appearing War . :roll: Sorry to say :(

You’re welcome.I think many Americans are ignorant of this knowledge.
If you treat people as subhuman for years it’s bound to go badly.


Hamas views Jews as subhuman. In fact, Jews being considered subhuman is hardly a recent thing. But perhaps you are ignorant of this knowledge.

Many people are treated that way across the globe, perhaps you are ignorant of that..Perhaps you should tell that to Jewish Voice for Peace.Seems they care about the issue.There are many Jews opposed to the treatment of Palestinians.


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Jono
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11 Oct 2023, 3:55 pm

Misslizard wrote:
rse92 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Jakki wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Good article from Jewish Voice for Peace.
The root of violence is oppression.
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/202 ... ceid=78272


Thank You ,Misslizard for posting this..think it is very poignant in understanding the reality of the Situations presented to people . In this So called very one sided appearing War . :roll: Sorry to say :(

You’re welcome.I think many Americans are ignorant of this knowledge.
If you treat people as subhuman for years it’s bound to go badly.


Hamas views Jews as subhuman. In fact, Jews being considered subhuman is hardly a recent thing. But perhaps you are ignorant of this knowledge.

Many people are treated that way across the globe, perhaps you are ignorant of that..Perhaps you should tell that to Jewish Voice for Peace.Seems they care about the issue.There are many Jews opposed to the treatment of Palestinians.


Maybe we shouldn't be equating Hamas with Palestinians. They're not the same thing.



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11 Oct 2023, 4:10 pm

So I think the real question that everyone is delicately dancing around here, is.... Do Arabs' lives matter, and do Arabs have a right to defend their neighborhoods? Villages? Countries?

Because, news flash, the Israeli war machine has no intention of ever stopping at Palestine, lol. The way you're seeing the IDF treat Palestinians is exactly what they'll do to every Arab population who doesn't have the means to resist them. Iraqi, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Saudi, doesn't matter, if you ever try to find common ground with Israel you'll wind up with a knife in your back every time.



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11 Oct 2023, 4:58 pm

Jono wrote:
Maybe we shouldn't be equating Hamas with Palestinians. They're not the same thing.

Are Hamas members from a different country than Palestine? Or are they extremist Palestinians?


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11 Oct 2023, 5:00 pm

Israelis face an impossible situation.

The HAMAS convention calls the complete destruction of Israel and the removal of Jews from the levant
https://embassies.gov.il/NEW-YORK/ABOUT ... enant.aspx

Statistics show 57% of Gazans actively support HAMAS and 67% of the residents of east Jerusalem support HAMAS.

Despite the fact Gaza is an exclusively self contained autonomous Palestinian enclave, HAMAS has repurposed aid from US and Israeli taxpayers (intended for infrastructure) to build weapons and tunnels that connect Gaza to Egypt.

The attack over the weekend was not a military operation. HAMAS is not an army. It was intended to inflict torture of civilians living in the state of Israel minding their own business. The terrorists intended to cause pain by filming the criminal behaviour against the elderly, women and children and post it the facebook accounts of their families.

Before demanding respect for the lives of Palestinians. Palestinian people need to respect lives of others. Including their own families. Israel told civilians in Gaza to leave as they begin their ground offensive to rescue kidnapped Israelis. HAMAS tell civilians they can't leave so they can use them as human shields. They establish their headquarters underneath the largest hospital in Gaza. When we talk about Arab lives mattering. It would appear HAMAS have no consideration of the lives of their own Palestinian people whom they knew would suffer when they committed acts of terror for no other purpose than instigating a war. I could pose the same question to Hezbollah in Lebanon killing christian arabs, ISIS in Iraq killing arabs, Saudi Arabia killing arab civilians in Yemen, Sudan's arabic government killing christians, muslim brotherhood in Egypt killing arab christians. Do arab lives matter to Arabs?



Misslizard
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11 Oct 2023, 5:35 pm

Human Rights Watch page on the Middle East.
https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/north-a ... /palestine


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11 Oct 2023, 5:46 pm

Did not mean to trigger an identity crises rse...But you are literally the first person i have ever seen about jews possibly being considered sub- human??. ...Am under the impression , that it might be visa versa inthe Gaza strip.
But i am not there ...so in real life idk. but have seen many pictures of Palestinians at crossing into Israel .
To what in the vid was described as housekeepers and day labourers. To make a few schekels from More affluent Israelis , as the video depicted ....But if you are carrying generational trauma ,perhaps that caused you to write what you did ? possibly ? then you are entitled to that POV but others posting contrary jewish points of veiw,by Jewish groups that are different,might draw some consideration. Am sorry if you have carried the idea of sub human concept into this thread .
And i repeat this is the first, i have heard of it on wrong planet . :( 8O


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rse92
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11 Oct 2023, 6:06 pm

Jakki wrote:
Did not mean to trigger an identity crises rse...But you are literally the first person i have ever seen about jews possibly being considered sub- human??. ...Am under the impression , that it might be visa versa inthe Gaza strip.
But i am not there ...so in real life idk. but have seen many pictures of Palestinians at crossing into Israel .
To what in the vid was described as housekeepers and day labourers. To make a few schekels from More affluent Israelis , as the video depicted ....But if you are carrying generational trauma ,perhaps that caused you to write what you did ? possibly ? then you are entitled to that POV but others posting contrary jewish points of veiw,by Jewish groups that are different,might draw some consideration. Am sorry if you have carried the idea of sub human concept into this thread .
And i repeat this is the first, i have heard of it on wrong planet . :( 8O


Google Der Sturmer.

I’m not Jewish, though I have many close Jewish friends and my wife’s paternal grandfather was Jewish.

I haven’t carried the subhuman theme into this thread. You mentioned it.

While you are looking at history, perhaps you could read up on what Hamas thinks of your LGBTQ friends and fellow posters on this board.



Misslizard
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11 Oct 2023, 6:43 pm

No one posting said they were in favor of Hamas , or the atrocities they committed, or any other terrorist group.
Not every Palestinian is in Hamas.


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11 Oct 2023, 6:44 pm

Barchan wrote:
So I think the real question that everyone is delicately dancing around here, is.... Do Arabs' lives matter, and do Arabs have a right to defend their neighborhoods? Villages? Countries?

Because, news flash, the Israeli war machine has no intention of ever stopping at Palestine, lol. The way you're seeing the IDF treat Palestinians is exactly what they'll do to every Arab population who doesn't have the means to resist them. Iraqi, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, Saudi, doesn't matter, if you ever try to find common ground with Israel you'll wind up with a knife in your back every time.


What are you talking about?

I am not a knee jerk defender of Israel, or its treatment of the Palestinians. But get real.

Your description of Israel, as a war machine out to conquer the whole Arab world is absurd.

But if you had said that same exact thing about the regime in Iran you would have been spot on. Iran IS a war machine trying to dominate the whole middle east.

And ironically Israel and the Saudies et al where actually bonding...over their common fear of Iran...until Iran's proxy Hamas did this thing.



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11 Oct 2023, 6:51 pm

Misslizard wrote:
No one posting said they were in favor of Hamas , or the atrocities they committed, or any other terrorist group.
Not every Palestinian is in Hamas.


I didn’t say that, about any one here. Don’t put words into my mouth.

I said she should read some history on how Jews have been viewed some societies over the years, as Hamas does, and that she should be aware that Hamas would just as certainly put LGBTQ people to death.



Misslizard
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11 Oct 2023, 7:48 pm

rse92 wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
No one posting said they were in favor of Hamas , or the atrocities they committed, or any other terrorist group.
Not every Palestinian is in Hamas.


I didn’t say that, about any one here. Don’t put words into my mouth.

I said she should read some history on how Jews have been viewed some societies over the years, as Hamas does, and that she should be aware that Hamas would just as certainly put LGBTQ people to death.

No one group has an exclusive on being treated badly.Human history is full of it.


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11 Oct 2023, 7:49 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
And ironically Israel and the Saudies et al where actually bonding...over their common fear of Iran...until Iran's proxy Hamas did this thing.


It's not just the Palis who are focusing on past Israeli offensives in Gaza and the west bank to distract the world. The mainstream media is bizarrely refusing to call HAMAS a terrorist organisation instead referring to them as "militants" and their terror attack as an "incursion".

Intellectuals in Ivy league universities have also come out in support of Palestine which disappointing but not really surprising.

Imagine calling the 9-11 bombers "militants" who made an "incursion" into US airspace,



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11 Oct 2023, 8:40 pm

What was Hamas thinking? For over three decades, it has had the same brutal idea of victory.

By JOSEPH KRAUSS
Updated 2:56 AM GMT+8, October 12, 2023

JERUSALEM (AP) -- In the three and a half decades since it began as an underground militant group, Hamas has pursued a consistently violent strategy aimed at rolling back Israeli rule -- and it has made steady progress despite bringing enormous suffering to both sides of the conflict.

But its stunning incursion into Israel over the weekend marks its deadliest gambit yet, and the already unprecedented response from Israel threatens to bring an end to its 16-year rule over the Gaza Strip.

Israel’s retaliation for the Hamas assault, in which over 1,200 people were killed in Israel and dozens dragged into Gaza as hostages, will likely bring a far greater magnitude of death and destruction to Gaza, where 2.3 million Palestinians have nowhere to flee and where 1,100 have already been killed.

Hamas officials say they are prepared for any scenario, including a drawn-out war, and that allies like Iran and Lebanon’s Hezbollah will join the battle.

From its establishment in the late 1980s, on the eve of the first Palestinian intifada, or uprising, Hamas has been committed to armed struggle and the destruction of Israel.  At the height of the peace process in the 1990s, it launched scores of suicide bombings and other attacks that killed hundreds of Israeli civilians. The violence only intensified with the breakdown in peace talks and the far deadlier second Palestinian uprising in 2000.

Hamas and the more radical Islamic Jihad militant group are holding some 150 men, women and children who were captured and dragged into Gaza.  Hamas’ armed wing claims some have already been killed in Israeli strikes and has threatened to kill captives if Israel attacks.



Read the complete and unedited story  HERE .


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Last edited by Fnord on 11 Oct 2023, 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Oct 2023, 8:52 pm

Hamas Coordinated with Iran 'Before, During' Israel Attack, Official Says

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Hamas was in active coordination with Iran before, during and after the attack against Israel over the weekend, a senior Hamas official said.

Ahmed Abdulhadi, Hamas's representative in Lebanon, said in response to a Newsweek question in an audio conversation on X that Hamas had also coordinated with Iran's Lebanese ally Hezbollah and with other factions of a so-called "Axis of Resistance" before the assault, the deadliest Palestinian militant attack in Israel's history.

Tehran has denied any role in the operation, though the Iranian Mission to the United Nations told Newsweek earlier Wednesday that the Islamic Republic had provided Palestinian fighters with "skills" to help them launch such an assault.

Abdulhadi said on X that "we coordinated with Hezbollah and with Iran and the Axis before, during and after this battle at the highest level." He said this coordination "has many dimensions—political, military and others."

While Hamas has long fostered ties with Iran, the Palestinian movement has denied that any other entity played a role in planning the surprise land, sea and air attack. Abdulhadi did not say that anyone other than Hamas itself had planned the attack.


Israel Faces Brutal Urban Warfare if It Invades Gaza
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While Israel is tight-lipped about its plans, the rapid mobilization of reservists has fueled speculation it could be preparing for a major ground invasion of Gaza.

"I don't think that can be considered a foregone conclusion," Colonel Richard Kemp, a retired British Army officer who commanded a battalion during the war in Afghanistan, told Newsweek. "What he [Netanyahu] says and what happens in reality may be two different things. You've got to look at it from the perspective [of] you don't announce your plans to the enemy."

"Netanyahu [has] always been very cautious around widespread use of military force," Daniel Byman, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told Vox. "But it may be hard to be cautious in these circumstances."

It would not be the first time Israeli troops have entered Gaza, but experts are already warning that such an operation could be costly for both the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the more than two million Palestinian civilians who live there.

They said that Hamas fighters may have already prepared ambushes and traps for any incoming forces, and that potentially heavy casualties, including of civilians, could complicate the operation for Israel geopolitically.

Entrenched Urban Warfare
Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions in the world, measuring 141 square miles in total, meaning buildings in its urban areas are tightly grouped together. Even though the Israeli army is proficient at both conventional and urban warfare, it is a tactical nightmare.

Israel previously occupied Gaza from 1967 to 2005, and successfully invaded the territory in 2014. But this time round, the same time militants had for planning their seemingly unnoticed coordinated attack was also time to prepare within Gaza.

"If they do decide to go in on the ground, then it's a very, very dangerous operation for the IDF because, apart from anything else, this attack that's taken place now obviously took months of planning—and part of that planning would be to prepare for Israel's reaction," Kemp said. "The whole area is going to be sown up with booby-traps, mines, sniper positions, ambushes, attack tunnels—you name it."

He added: "The IDF is trained to do that, they're trained for those operations...but, no matter how much training you do, it's still a risky, very dangerous form of military operations."

"Hamas still has a robust arsenal of rockets and could be planning more ambushes," Colin Clarke, research director at the Soufan Group, a security consultancy, told Vox. "I wouldn't be surprised to see suicide bombings, if Hamas is able to infiltrate more operatives onto Israeli soil."

An article for the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point examined the performance of Hamas in Gaza in 2014. It described Hamas fighters as determined and adaptable.

"Close combat involved direct fire engagements between Hamas and Israeli ground forces, with Hamas using RPGs, machine guns, and small arms. Hamas employed mortars, short range rockets and antitank guided missiles to support these engagements. Hamas fighters appeared more effective and aggressive than in past conflicts, surprising Israeli forces and coordinating fire," it said.

It added that Hamas was able to maintain its defenses, and fire rockets toward Israel, even under intense attack from the air. However, it was less effective at engaging Israeli tanks and armored vehicles.

Kemp suggested the Israeli air force could achieve its government's aims of crippling Hamas with air strikes alone, but had been prevented from doing so previously due to international pressure. While many world leaders have expressed solidarity with Israel over the latest attacks, that sentiment may not hold in a bloody, urban battle.

The former colonel, who also served in Northern Ireland and Bosnia, said a ground invasion was "less precise and controlled than strikes from the air.

"IDF aircraft are pretty much invulnerable; they can take their time, and the same goes for missile strikes into Gaza. There's no real pressure to act quickly if the conditions aren't right, whereas on the ground there is pressure to act quickly and in a very confused situation. Because it's not only a question of killing the enemy; it's also a question of trying not to kill your own troops."

Civilian Casualties
When Israel last sent troops into Gaza, the war took around 1,500 civilian lives, according to U.N. estimates. Some 1,600 people have already been killed on both sides in the current violence, the Associated Press has reported, with thousands more wounded. So far, Israel's military action beyond its borders has been limited to air strikes.

"The likelihood of a high number of civilian casualties in a ground operation is much greater," Kemp said. "I think no matter how much you work to minimize civilian casualties, you're not going to succeed when there's lots of densely populated built-up areas, when the enemy is operating among the civilian population—very often dressed exactly like the civilian population [and] hard to distinguish—and not only that, but they use the civilian population as human shields deliberately."

"You could get up to 10,000, 20,000 [civilian casualties]—there's really no limit to the amount of people that could be harmed by that kind of invasion," Frank Lowenstein, a former U.S. special envoy for Middle East peace, told BBC Newsnight on Monday.

A high civilian death toll would likely lead to public outcry, and could prompt political pressure for Israel to cease any potential ground invasion—frustrating its stated aim of eradicating Hamas' militia.

"Hamas' entire military strategy is predicated not on defeating Israel on the battlefield—because they can't," Kemp said. "Their strategy is to attack Israel in such a way that Israel is obliged to carry out retaliation, as any country would, and that retaliation is inevitably going to cause civilian casualties, which is what Hamas want.

"They want their own civilians to die at the hands of the IDF, so they can use that to isolate, vilify, condemn Israel...on the world stage, which they've been extremely successful at."

Hugh Lovatt, a senior Middle East analyst at the European Council on Foreign Relations, told the Telegraph: "An Israeli ground incursion will come at a tremendous cost in terms of Palestinian and Israeli lives. As past operations have shown, it will amplify Gaza's humanitarian crisis and fan Palestinian and Arab anger against Israel."

It is not just Palestinian civilians currently at risk in Gaza, but an estimated 150 hostages—including women, children and the elderly—who were taken from Israel by militants with the intention of exchanging them for Palestinian prisoners. Hamas officials have since threatened to kill one for every air strike undertaken without warning.

"You can't release them from the air," Kemp said of the hostages. "Whether you can release them from the ground or not is another question as well, and I wouldn't be too confident of that."

Exit Strategy
Hamas, through its political wing, has been the de facto ruler of Gaza since 2006, after Israel's withdrawal. Even if Israel were able to dismantle its operations, the IDF would then face the challenge of maintaining order in a region where the local population staunchly opposes Israeli governance.

"I think it may be that there is not an exit strategy," Kemp said, noting a withdrawal from Gaza could come when the IDF "believe that Hamas' capability of fighting back and its will to resist had been destroyed," but that in previous conflicts Hamas had "never lost their will to resist."

In the ensuing power vacuum, he said, the only alternative was for the IDF to maintain a military presence in Gaza on a permanent basis, as it had done previously—but that was "not an easy task."


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11 Oct 2023, 9:22 pm

I am a bit concerned I came off the wrong way earlier in this thread, so just want to say I for sure do not agree with Hamas. But I can understand why desperate Palestinians may see them as the only ones to fight for them, and well the Israeli government has been forcing them out of their homes to make way for settlers which is not exactly right.

So basically, I think both sides are wrong, and it's awful that Israeli and Palestinian civilians are dying due to this conflict as they seem to be the main people getting targeted on either side as far as I can tell.


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