Shooting at LGBT nightclub in Florida, 20 injured

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Kraichgauer
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13 Jun 2016, 5:50 pm

docfox wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

docfox wrote:

Lukeda420 wrote:

docfox wrote:

Lukeda420 wrote:

Docfox,

There are different variations of Sharia law so again I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. But as I acknowledged the other day there is a problem in that area of the world. Relatively speaking they are just behind the modern world when it comes to basic human rights. I just don't think the cause is Islam, I just think Islam makes for a good justification.

The only line legally speaking that I can think of is that of promoting violence in the name of their beliefs.

Nazism itself didin't promote violence, but a majority of Nazi's thought violence was justified in the name of Nazism.

Would you allow Nazi's to emigrate to the U.S then?

The ACLU defended the right of nazis to march through the largely Jewish neighborhood of Skokie many of the residents were even holocaust survivors. Even though I I think what the marchers wanted to do was despicable I agree they still have a right to express their hateful and bigoted message. If a person has no criminal background or ties to extremist groups than there isn't anything we can really do to stop them from emigrating regardless of there personal beliefs.

The U.S used to not allow emigration from these countries period without special circumstances.

Japan/Korea/China/to a lesser extent Russia STILL do not allow emigration from these countries period.

There is no such thing as a 'right to emigrate'

Also Lukeda, I don't think you understood my analogy.

I am not talking about letting Nazi's in America do Nazi things, I'm talking about during the 1930's, would you consider it moral for the U.S to let people from Nazi Germany (who would be, statistically, likely to share Nazi party values - I'm talking about white germans not jews here) emigrate to the U.S and become citizens?

Even if the majority of these people had anti-semite beliefs, you'd still let them emigrate if they weren't directly involved in the violence themselves?

How would that affect the U.S's decision to go to war with Nazi Germany if a bunch of German citizens lived in the U.S?

There was in fact immigration of Non-Jewish Germans to America, right up to Hitler declaring war on the US, as it was widely understood that not only Jews wanted to escape Nazism.
And sadly, the truth is Jews were much less likely to get to come to America. A whole ship load of Jewish refugees sought safety in America, and were turned away, only to die in a concentration camp. Antisemitism was alive and well in America in those days, too.

I haven't done that much research on this, but I don't believe there was that much emigration of white germans. There was plenty of jewish emigration though because the Nazi Party actually encouraged it up into about 1938-1939.

Yes, as a matter of fact, there were. Unfortunately, some of them were Nazis, who eagerly joined the German-American Bund, which was America's first Nazi party. Most, though, were fleeing the Nazis, many of whom joined the US military in order to liberate their old home land from what they saw as an illegal government.

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Barchan
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13 Jun 2016, 5:52 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

Naziism definitely is not dead. They have a thriving community over at wrongplanet

Fixed that for ya :lol:

Campin_Cat
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13 Jun 2016, 6:01 pm

Dox47 wrote:

You know, no one seems to be asking yet if the shooter actually did all the damage himself, or if someone of the deaths were due to police gunfire. He was there for a while, and I know it's been reported that the police tried to storm the place at least once, so I'm wondering if it might come out in the future that the police inadvertently did some of the killing.

I just heard on "NBC Nightly News" that the police killed 2 people (38 people died at-the-scene; 9 died waiting for help / en route to hospital; police killed 2; that, of course, equals 49----all this time the media has been saying 50, but that number included the shooter).

The broadcast also said that 48 people have been identified; and that there's a possible arrest of an accomplice (as in, someone helped him plan it----NOT that someone helped him kill).

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Lukeda420
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13 Jun 2016, 6:17 pm

Docfox

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. I've tried to answer your questions, I'm not sure what you're trying to get me to say.

And if yeah you want me to say that there are radicals claiming to do their violent acts in the name of Islam, then yes there are. My original point was just to say that those people have perverted the religion so badly that they deserve to be called Muslims. Just like Christians who kill abortion doctors are not real Christians. That's all I was really trying to get across.

docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 6:39 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

And the point I was getting across was where do you draw the line between "perverted religion" and what is mainstream Islam if a majority of muslims in these areas support what you call "perverted"?

If a majority of Christians in the U.S supported killing abortion doctors, would you still say they're not real Christians?

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Lukeda420
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13 Jun 2016, 6:51 pm

docfox wrote:

Lukeda420 wrote:

The fact is the majority of Christians don't believe that. I've also said this before. Yes I absolutely believe that the majority of Muslims are peaceful people. Even in the middle east the vast majority do not support terrorism. What Isis does is an obvious perversion of Islam. And I've answered where I think we should draw the line. Trying to find the perfect hypothetical situation to get me to agree with you is pointless.

docfox
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13 Jun 2016, 7:13 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

docfox wrote:

Lukeda420 wrote:

Have you been ignoring the data we've been providing or?

99% of Afghanistani's believe in sharia law.
39% believe attacking civilians in the name/defense of Islam is at times justified.
25% of Muslims In America believe violence Against Americans is justified in the name of a "Global jihad"
36% of Muslims In America believe they shouldn't answer to U.S courts, but separate "Shariah courts"

Data for the first two was previously posted. American data is at -> http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/ ... l-Data.pdf

If you can continue to compare a vast minority of Christians (Under 5%) to what is held by 1/4th of Muslims in America and 40-50% of Muslims in the middle east purely in regards to violence, and close to 80% in regards to Shariah (which itself encourages violence and the death/lashing of Gay's), then I truly don't know how to correct your interpretation of this.

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AspieUtah
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13 Jun 2016, 7:40 pm

Maybe this has already been posted, but, according to The Advocate national LGBT newsmagazine, the National Rifle Association published two television public-service announcements "aimed at opposing a California gun control measure [are] targeting LGBT voters and women in the state." The first PSA titled "Take Away Our Rights, Take Away Our Life" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhpEmPOxgVQ ) showed a woman attacked in a parking garage. The second PSA titled "It Doesn't Matter Who You Are" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFpXGXeRyYU ) showed a trans* woman. The PSAs were produced by the Coalition for Civil Liberties.

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Noca
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13 Jun 2016, 7:47 pm

The shooter was apparently a closet case. He was a regular at the club for 3 years and on gay dating apps. Figures, those with the most hate towards LGBT are closet cases themselves.

http://gawker.com/orlando-shooter-was-r ... 1781920316

AspieUtah
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13 Jun 2016, 7:53 pm

Noca wrote:

Hm. So, he was behaving much the same way as many of the 9/11 hijackers did when they attended stripper bars, ate pork rinds and drank alcohol. In fact, it appears to create a norm for jihadis, doesn't it? Think rumspringa writ large.

Barchan
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13 Jun 2016, 8:04 pm

Noca wrote:

The shooter was apparently a closet case. He was a regular at the club for 3 years and on gay dating apps. Figures, those with the most hate towards LGBT are closet cases themselves.

It also makes sense if you think about homophobia in the context of religious extremism.

If he was gay, then he might have felt like he was a sinner and that violence and death was the only way he could be forgiven.

0regonGuy
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13 Jun 2016, 8:25 pm

AspieUtah wrote:

0regonGuy wrote:

...guns that are as easy to buy as candy are to blame....

I presume you are describing buying firearms illegally on some black market."

Black market? LOL. There is no black market for guns anywhere in the US, unless you call gun shows a black market. Every type of firearm you could want is being sold openly.

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Dox47
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13 Jun 2016, 8:33 pm

0regonGuy wrote:

Black market? LOL. There is no black market for guns anywhere in the US, unless you call gun shows a black market. Every type of firearm you could want is being sold openly.

It's not a black market, simply an informal one. I assume you've done enough arms trading to be thoroughly familiar with all the ins and outs? You wouldn't post about something you know nothing about, would you?

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0regonGuy
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13 Jun 2016, 8:40 pm

Everything you need to know about gun control. No gun nut can argue with Jim Jefferies, because he is 100% spot on.

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Lukeda420
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13 Jun 2016, 8:58 pm

Docfox,

You're cherry picking the statistics that sound the most favorable to your side. You're looking at the statistics of a war torn country in an incredibly impoverished region. Islam is not what is causing people to lash out like that. If the religions were reversed I don't think they're would be all that big of a difference. Africa has large amounts of Christian hardliners that were trying to pass the "kill the gay" laws in Uganda. Then you have groups like The lords resistance army.

Religion is an excuse. A radical of any group can cause mass amounts of damage. It just so happens that the area with people most susceptible to radicalization live in primarily Muslim regions.

I've heard so called Christians use the same kind of rhetoric about giving gays the death penalty. I hear people go back and forth on what religion has more bad things in it. It doesn't matter crazy people will use anything and everything to justify their actions whether it be the bible or the Quran.

And as I said before there are many different schools of sharia and different interpretations within those. It's way more complicated than you're making it out to be.

nurseangela
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13 Jun 2016, 9:04 pm

0regonGuy wrote:

Everything you need to know about gun control. No gun nut can argue with Jim Jefferies, because he is 100% spot on.

Funny ha ha. How about I don't like my rights taken away. And, I like my f'n guns. Big Sig is sure purty with his wood handle grips. :mrgreen:

Also, I'm tired of doing everything "for the children". (I think I just threw up in my mouth) :eew:

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