Monuments to racism toppling around the world.

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Karamazov
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23 Jun 2020, 2:33 pm

sly279 wrote:

envirozentinel wrote:

Almost all these leaders of society were a mix of good and bad, and making a study of them, even just on Wikipedia, you'll find they're remembered for both good and bad things - many grey areas.

This statue, in my home city, is the best kind of statue. It was erected as a tribute to the horses who perished during the Anglo-Boer War and shows an unspecified soldier caring for his horse. It was unveiled in 1905. Animals are more deserving of a statue like this one than many of the leaders thus commemorated!

The inscription says the following:

THE GREATNESS OF A NATION
CONSISTS NOT SO MUCH IN THE NUMBER OF ITS PEOPLE
OR THE EXTENT OF ITS TERRITORY
AS IN THE EXTENT AND JUSTICE OF ITS COMPASSION

ERECTED BY PUBLIC SUBSCRIPTION
IN RECOGNITION OF THE SERVICES OF THE GALLANT ANIMALS
WHICH PERISHED IN THE ANGLO BOER WAR 1899–1902

You mean a statues that glorifies the killings of Africans and their forced rule. Tear it down.

Nah, that war was between two different groups of European colonisers. Boers (predominantly Dutch descent) and the British Empire.

Plenty of atrocities though.

But it was a white Protestant vs white Protestant affair.

sly279
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23 Jun 2020, 2:34 pm

Fnord wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Quote:

... President Trump slammed the protesters Monday night, "for the disgraceful vandalism, in Lafayette Park, of the magnificent Statue of Andrew Jackson, in addition to the exterior defacing of St. John’s Church across the street."

He added, "10 years in prison under the Veteran’s Memorial Preservation Act. Beware!"

Surprise! President Trump does not know what he is talking about!

Quote:

18 U.S. Code § 1369.Destruction of veterans’ memorials

(a)Whoever, in a circumstance described in subsection (b), willfully injures or destroys, or attempts to injure or destroy, any structure, plaque, statue, or other monument on public property commemorating the service of any person or persons in the armed forces of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.

(b)A circumstance described in this subsection is that—

(1)in committing the offense described in subsection (a), the defendant travels or causes another to travel in interstate or foreign commerce, or uses the mail or an instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce; or

(2)the structure, plaque, statue, or other monument described in subsection (a) is located on property owned by, or under the jurisdiction of, the Federal Government.

(Added Pub. L. 108–29, § 2(a), May 29, 2003, 117 Stat. 772.)

Okay, so a memorial for Andrew Jackson is covered under this statute, and any Confederate memorial on federal property might also be covered.

But since when has any Confederate statue commemorated the service of any person or persons in the armed forces of the United States? Last I knew, Confederate soldiers did not serve in the American armed forces during the Civil War.

They also lost the Civil War, thus deserving no memorial honors whatsoever.

Most served in it afterwards. And they were all deemed to be American soldiers.
Part of the forgiveness and move forward as one nation many of people today don’t grasp. Luckily cooler smarter heads prevailed back then.

When are you tearing down all the statues to British royals? Will the tp queen’s image be removed from Canadian currency ?
I’ll talk about confederate statues when Canada removes the royals and their horrible history.

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Fnord
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23 Jun 2020, 2:38 pm

sly279 wrote:

Okay, but they were still the losers of the Civil War, so why should they be honored -- as consolation?

sly279 wrote:

When are you tearing down all the statues to British royals? Will the the queen’s image be removed from Canadian currency ? I’ll talk about confederate statues when Canada removes the royals and their horrible history.

Dude ... I'm not Canadian. Try to keep up.

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funeralxempire
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23 Jun 2020, 3:42 pm

sly279 wrote:

Fnord wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Quote:

Surprise! President Trump does not know what he is talking about!

Quote:

We can discussing removing Canada's rightful leadership from Canadian money when Americans are willing to remove their founding fathers from theirs.

Neither Canada's monarchy nor America's former leaders are in the same category as the confederate losers. America gained her sovereignty from the crown, Canada defended her sovereignty against American aggression in 1812. They're both winners, not something the failed founding fathers of the racist Confederate traitor states can claim.

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Brictoria
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24 Jun 2020, 10:34 am

I wonder, in the rush to pull down all these statues and monuments, whether Mount Rushmore will join the list...

I can't imagine it would be an easy one to pull down, though.

auntblabby
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24 Jun 2020, 10:37 am

it would require historical revisionists of a more explosive temperament.

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24 Jun 2020, 10:43 am

auntblabby wrote:

it would require historical revisionists of a more explosive temperament.

Or someone who does nothing but pick, pick, pick 24/7.

goldfish21
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24 Jun 2020, 12:22 pm

I had a conversation a week or so ago about the possibility of removing the queen from our money - and also the unlikelihood that it would ever happen.

I did see a Facebook thing circulating talking about removing and replacing all of the racist politicians featured on our money - that’s way more likely. Only the $10 bill wasn’t included in the discussion because whoever was on it just got bumped and replaced by Viola Desmond and the new bills are still coming into circulation as the old ones are removed. Since you’ve probably never heard of her, she was essentially Canada’s Rosa Parks - but made her stand against segregation in a cinema 9 years before Rosa’s bus ride and also campaigned for civil rights extensively.

Personally, I’m okay with ditching all the hardcore racists from our money and replacing them with everyone from Indigenous leaders to scientists & inventors that have actually contributed to Canadian society.

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Karamazov
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24 Jun 2020, 12:37 pm

Here in the UK the people on the money (whole design of the notes tbh) are changed every couple of decades, think it’s a counter-forgery measure primarily.
Been going through a changeover recently:
£5 Elizabeth Fry -> Winston Churchill
£10 Charles Darwin -> Jane Austen
£20 Adam Smith -> JMW Turner

There are £50 notes as well, but they’re very rare, only ever handled two of them...
and there are Scottish Banks who print notes of the same value, but with Scottish pictures: usually feats of engineering rather than people.

ASPartOfMe
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24 Jun 2020, 2:34 pm

Andrew Cuomo defends destruction of U.S. monuments: 'It's a healthy expression'

Quote:

New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo called the attacks on monuments “healthy expression” and “good statements.”

In an appearance Tuesday on NBC, he denied President Trump’s admonition that, in the words of interviewer Savannah Guthrie, “cities should do more to protect monuments.”

Instead, Mr. Cuomo characterized the attacks — which have targeted monuments to Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, Theodore Roosevelt and World War II veterans among others — as anti-racist statements.

“People are making a statement about equality, about community, to be against racism, against slavery, I think those are good statements,” the Democratic governor said.

While he acknowledged that “of course you can” overdo such statements, he didn’t think that had happened in New York, claiming that the problem with the Roosevelt statue at the Museum of Natural History wasn’t really Teddy but what surrounded him (a black man and an Indian).

Nevertheless, he said, the removals are a good reminder of America’s wrongs.

“It’s a healthy expression of people saying let’s get some priorities here and let’s remember the sin and mistake that this nation made and let’s not celebrate it,” he said.

Vandalism of racist statues is ok except when it is a Italian historical figure.

The problem with the Teddy Roosevelt statue is not just who his statue is surrounded by. He does not pass today's purity tests.

7 Beloved Famous People Who Were Wildly Pro-Eugenics

Teddy Roosevelt wrote:

I agree with you if you mean, as I suppose you do, that society has no business to permit degenerates to reproduce their kind. It is really extraordinary that our people refuse to apply to human beings such elementary knowledge as every successful farmer is obliged to apply to his own stock breeding. Any group of farmers who permitted their best stock not to breed, and let all the increase come from the worst stock, would be treated as fit inmates for an asylum. Yet we fail to understand that such conduct is rational compared to the conduct of a nation which permits unlimited breeding from the worst stocks, physically and morally, while it encourages or connives at the cold selfishness or the twisted sentimentality as a result of which the men and women ought to marry, and if married have large families, remain celebates or have no children or only one or two. Some day we will realize that the prime duty the inescapable duty of the good citizen of the right type is to leave his or her blood behind him in the world; and that we have no business to permit the perpetuation of citizens of the wrong type.

Teddy Roosevelt discusses America’s race problem

Quote:

On February 13, 1905, President Theodore Roosevelt delivers a stirring speech to the New York City Republican Club.

Roosevelt’s solution to the race problem in 1905 was to proceed slowly toward social and economic equality. He cautioned against imposing radical changes in government policy and instead suggested a gradual adjustment in the attitudes of whites toward ethnic minorities. He referred to white Americans as the forward race, whose responsibility it was to raise the status of minorities through training the backward race[s] in industrial efficiency, political capacity and domestic morality. Thus, he claimed whites bore the burden of preserving the high civilization wrought out by its forefathers

Teddy was also one of the fathers of progressivism and environmentalism. In other words he is a typical historical figure in having good and bad points.

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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 24 Jun 2020, 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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24 Jun 2020, 2:45 pm

sly279 wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

sly279 wrote:

cberg wrote:

No amount of hot air is going to convince me anyone on the other side cares about the statues enough to justify walking all over someone else's dignity.

Historical truth > conspiracy theories. This is not a conspiracy to erase your history, it's a request to acknowledge someone else's.

People who want Auschwitz erased say the same thing.
So when there nothing left but what’s in books and people say slavery is fiction it didn’t happen just as civil war didn’t happen. Then what?

you're slitting your own throat and arguing against yourself.

The status quo - confederate statues is a lie. A lie because it honors men who do not deserve to be honored. THAT is history being erased.

Tearing down the statues removes the lies, and preserves history.

The confederate statues are the equivalent of the US putting up statues to Hitler and Himmler et al. Not saying Lee was as bad as Hitler, but that would be the equivalent if you're putting up statues.

Aushwitz is the equivalent of preserving slave cabins on old plantations to show how miserable the slaves lived. It preserves the truth.

Roman statues are lie too, so are British statues, so are Canadian ones.
Do you think roman emperors were good people?
Do you think British kings were good people?

Confederate generals didn’t commit genocide of millions of people. Many didn’t even own slaves. To put them in the same level of the planners of mass genocide is false comparisons. As many have stated you can change the placques and keep the statues up to show the bad history. What you want is to same as those who want the death camps erased and say it’s fine we have history books about the Nazis.
Als statues if Hitler still exist they were destroyed, the place the Nazis rallied at still
exists. Hitlers giant stadium still exists. Many Nazis went in to become honored American heroes. They still honored today despite being responsible for deaths of thousands.

Cherry picking who’s bad enough to get erased and who’s bad but we like them is wrong.

I bet you’d be right there against the museum of hitlers bunker being made.
Maybe we just shouldn’t have any statues of anyone.

Nonsense. They cherry pick who to put up statues to in the first place so why not cherry pick which ones to take down years later? In 1776 American colonists pulled down statues of King George across the 13 Colonies, and in 1990 Russians pulled down statues of Lenin from one end of Russia to the other. An American artist even collected the now abandoned heads of Lenin aiming to mold them all into his own sculpture in America (it never materialized- and the dozens of Lenin heads still lie in a junk yard somewhere in the US). When nations change direction statues of personages venerated by the fallen old order often come down. Nothing wrong with that as such. Its to be expected.

lostonearth35
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24 Jun 2020, 2:47 pm

So are they going to blow up Mount Rushmore? It was built against the wishes of Native Americans and was created by a member of the KKK. But of course it's only black people who have been oppressed and treated horribly and not other minorities. :roll:

And besides, it's such an American "icon" that I've seen it in many cartoons, even on the cover of an ALF comic book. Although it did get accidentally blown up by Roger Rabbit. Baby Herman called him a "star-spangled bonehead". :lol:

ASPartOfMe
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24 Jun 2020, 2:50 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

sly279 wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

sly279 wrote:

cberg wrote:

I don't see a lot of cherry picking going on ATM. It started out that way but we are past that. It's a virtue signaling orgy, which some of us expected.

naturalplastic
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24 Jun 2020, 2:52 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:

And besides, it's such an American "icon" that I've seen it in many cartoons, even on the cover of an ALF comic book. Although it did get accidentally blown up by Roger Rabbit. Baby Herman called him a "star-spangled bonehead". :lol:

Didn't Carey Grant dangle from Washington's nose in Hitchcock's "North by Northwest"?

naturalplastic
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24 Jun 2020, 3:26 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

sly279 wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

sly279 wrote:

cberg wrote:

I don't see a lot of cherry picking going on ATM. It started out that way but we are past that. It's a virtue signaling orgy, which some of us expected.

True. I dont like it either how its turned into mob violence against every male historic personage depicted in stone. But at least the "victims" of this mob violence arent real people, but stone ones. Lol!

In fact if I were the POTUS (even a POTUS like Trump who pitches to the far Right) I would say something like "as a nation we need to take a time out. Take a deep breath. And calm down. Lets all have a one year moratorium on statue dismantling (both by local governments, and by -adhoc groups of citizens- dont call them "mobs") so we all can calm down, and reassess things. Maybe some monuments need to come down, and others not. A year from now - after the election is over etc-maybe we can go back to the issue of assessing which old monuments still express our values today and which do not". But Trump would never advocate calmness or consensus in a speech like that.

funeralxempire
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24 Jun 2020, 3:30 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:

You seem to be under the impression that BLM isn't supportive of indigenous groups and their struggles. What gave you this false impression?

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