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[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 4:59 pm

kokopelli wrote:
And the Israelis are making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country at war in history.


You keep repeating this claim but have so far failed to support it.


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07 Jan 2025, 5:01 pm

^^ If you think that police will go into a school and kill lots of innocent people so as to hit the occasional shooter, you are sadly mistaken. That’s not how it works.

Out of the 45,000 people who’ve been killed 70% were women and children. Most men weren’t part of Hamas, either.

The Israelis are NOT making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country. That’s been proven over and over again. We have a great deal of evidence on this topic. The only way you could think otherwise is if you were primarily engaging with pro-Israel propaganda.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 07 Jan 2025, 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:02 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
As has been explained to you many times already, no one here is excusing Hamas. If Hamas is like school shooters, then the IDF would be like law enforcement who’d think an appropriate response would be killing and abusing students - the vast majority of whom weren’t even involved.

The IDF also “has no right to target civilians and to murder, torture, and rape women and children” or anyone else. Saying that the IDF is wrong doesn’t mean people think Hamas is right - false dilemma.


People here excuse HAMAS daily when they try to place all the blame on Israel. Sure, Israel is hardly pure in this matter.

If the attacks of October 7, 2023 had not happened, do you think that this would all be happening anyway? If so, then wouldn't Israel have been attacking HAMAS like they are now? How many people were being killed over there by military action before the attacks of October 7, 2023.

Like it or not, HAMAS is the instigator and they MUST be stopped.



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:03 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
And the Israelis are making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country at war in history.


You keep repeating this claim but have so far failed to support it.


I posted an article about their attempts to avoid collateral deaths. Did you not see it? Or are you just trying to ignore anything that is contrary to what you wish to believe?



TwilightPrincess
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07 Jan 2025, 5:04 pm

Israel has always been the instigator. October 7th did not happen in a vacuum. Israel’s oppression of Palestine, including unfair imprisonments, have been happening for decades.


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07 Jan 2025, 5:06 pm

kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
And the Israelis are making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country at war in history.


You keep repeating this claim but have so far failed to support it.


I posted an article about their attempts to avoid collateral deaths. Did you not see it? Or are you just trying to ignore anything that is contrary to what you wish to believe?

As was already pointed out to you, that article was written all the way back in January 2024 and left out relevant information, including war crimes that Israel had already committed at that point. It seems to be largely pro-Israel propaganda.


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funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 5:07 pm

kokopelli wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
As has been explained to you many times already, no one here is excusing Hamas. If Hamas is like school shooters, then the IDF would be like law enforcement who’d think an appropriate response would be killing and abusing students - the vast majority of whom weren’t even involved.

The IDF also “has no right to target civilians and to murder, torture, and rape women and children” or anyone else. Saying that the IDF is wrong doesn’t mean people think Hamas is right - false dilemma.


People here excuse HAMAS daily when they try to place all the blame on Israel. Sure, Israel is hardly pure in this matter.

If the attacks of October 7, 2023 had not happened, do you think that this would all be happening anyway? If so, then wouldn't Israel have been attacking HAMAS like they are now? How many people were being killed over there by military action before the attacks of October 7, 2023.

Like it or not, HAMAS is the instigator and they MUST be stopped.


Are you pretending the occupation of Palestine started on October 7th and that the October 7th attacks weren't a response to Israel's ongoing actions between 1947 and October 6th 2023?

This is a common pro-Israel deceit, to ignore all history prior to a given date and attempt to use that dishonest framing to present Israel as the guiltless victim rather than as the constant antagonist.

There's people who are capable of recognizing the root cause and there's pro-Israel shills who consistently demonstrate they're incapable of recognizing the root cause. No amount of dishonest framing from the latter will alter the reality of the situation.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 5:08 pm

kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
And the Israelis are making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country at war in history.


You keep repeating this claim but have so far failed to support it.


I posted an article about their attempts to avoid collateral deaths. Did you not see it? Or are you just trying to ignore anything that is contrary to what you wish to believe?


The article was just hasbara, so forgive me for not treating Israeli lies as a credible source.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:11 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
^^ If you think that police will go into a school and kill lots of innocent people so as to hit the occasional shooter, you are sadly mistaken. That’s not how it works.
They try to avoid collateral damage. If possible, they will try to arrest the shooter, but that is not always the case.

Keep in mind that the police and the military have much different training. You can see that in the death of Esequiel (sp?) Hernandez from Redford, Texas. He was carried a .22 rifle for plinking while herding his goats. What he didn't know was that there were heavily concealed US Marines on a training mission and he shot in their direction. They tracked him down and shot him. After shooting him, they stood around watching him die. When a US Border Patrol agent arrived a while later, he tried to get medical help for the kid but was too late.

The military is not your local police.

Quote:
Out of the 45,000 people who’ve been killed 70% were women and children. Most men weren’t part of Hamas, either.

The Israelis are NOT making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country. That’s been proven over and over again. We have a great deal of evidence on this topic. The only way you could think otherwise is if you were primarily engaging with pro-Israel propaganda.


If you think that you can do better, why don't you go to Israel and volunteer your services?



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:12 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Israel has always been the instigator. October 7th did not happen in a vacuum. Israel’s oppression of Palestine, including unfair imprisonments, have been happening for decades.


Unfair imprisonments is justification for the rape, torture, and murder of women and children?

Do you really believe that?



TwilightPrincess
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07 Jan 2025, 5:16 pm

kokopelli wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
^^ If you think that police will go into a school and kill lots of innocent people so as to hit the occasional shooter, you are sadly mistaken. That’s not how it works.
They try to avoid collateral damage.
I’ve not seen evidence of that. The numbers as well as eyewitness accounts of citizens and humanitarian organizations suggest otherwise. I don’t give a f**k what Israel purports to do. They’ve proven themselves to be an unreliable source when it comes to reporting on their own behavior.
kokopelli wrote:
Quote:
The Israelis are NOT making more attempts to avoid collateral deaths than any other country. That’s been proven over and over again. We have a great deal of evidence on this topic. The only way you could think otherwise is if you were primarily engaging with pro-Israel propaganda.

If you think that you can do better, why don't you go to Israel and volunteer your services?
I am neither capable nor qualified to do so. It doesn’t mean I can’t talk about the conflict and cite valid research on the topic.


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kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:18 pm

From [url][https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-has-created-a-new-standard-for-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion/ar-BB1kw2Wf[/url]:

Quote:
The Israel Defense Forces conducted an operation at al-Shifa hospital in the Gaza Strip to root out Hamas terrorists recently, once again taking unique precautions as it entered the facility to protect the innocent; Israeli media reported that doctors accompanied the forces to help Palestinian patients if needed. They were also reported to be carrying food, water and medical supplies for the civilians inside.

None of this meant anything to Israel's critics, of course, who immediately pounced. The critics, as usual, didn't call out Hamas for using protected facilities like hospitals for its military activity. Nor did they mention the efforts of the IDF to minimize civilian casualties.

In their criticism, Israel's opponents are erasing a remarkable, historic new standard Israel has set. In my long career studying and advising on urban warfare for the U.S. military, I've never known an army to take such measures to attend to the enemy's civilian population, especially while simultaneously combating the enemy in the very same buildings. In fact, by my analysis, Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the U.S. did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Are you gong to say that MSN is another right wing publication?



TwilightPrincess
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07 Jan 2025, 5:21 pm

kokopelli wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Israel has always been the instigator. October 7th did not happen in a vacuum. Israel’s oppression of Palestine, including unfair imprisonments, have been happening for decades.

Unfair imprisonments is justification for the rape, torture, and murder of women and children?

Do you really believe that?

Rape, torture, and murder are not okay when it’s committed by Hamas, the IDF, or anyone else. You keep on broaching this topic as a false dichotomy.


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TwilightPrincess
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07 Jan 2025, 5:26 pm

kokopelli wrote:
From [url][https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-has-created-a-new-standard-for-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion/ar-BB1kw2Wf[/url]:
Quote:
The Israel Defense Forces conducted an operation at al-Shifa hospital in the Gaza Strip to root out Hamas terrorists recently, once again taking unique precautions as it entered the facility to protect the innocent; Israeli media reported that doctors accompanied the forces to help Palestinian patients if needed. They were also reported to be carrying food, water and medical supplies for the civilians inside.

None of this meant anything to Israel's critics, of course, who immediately pounced. The critics, as usual, didn't call out Hamas for using protected facilities like hospitals for its military activity. Nor did they mention the efforts of the IDF to minimize civilian casualties.

In their criticism, Israel's opponents are erasing a remarkable, historic new standard Israel has set. In my long career studying and advising on urban warfare for the U.S. military, I've never known an army to take such measures to attend to the enemy's civilian population, especially while simultaneously combating the enemy in the very same buildings. In fact, by my analysis, Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the U.S. did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Are you gong to say that MSN is another right wing publication?

This article is an opinion piece and has very little meat to it. I also can’t find a date. It does appear like the writer was buying into pro-Israel propaganda.


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funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 5:44 pm

kokopelli wrote:
Are you gong to say that MSN is another right wing publication?


It's an opinion piece from Newsweek. Newsweek regularly allows propaganda pieces to be published without any critical commentary.

John Spencer is nothing more than a propagandist, why should his claims be taken without even a grain of salt? His job is to spin things as favourably as possible for Israel.

For TP: The article was first published on Mar 24, updated Mar 26, 2024.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


Last edited by funeralxempire on 07 Jan 2025, 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:47 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Israel has always been the instigator. October 7th did not happen in a vacuum. Israel’s oppression of Palestine, including unfair imprisonments, have been happening for decades.

Unfair imprisonments is justification for the rape, torture, and murder of women and children?

Do you really believe that?

Rape, torture, and murder are not okay when it’s committed by Hamas, the IDF, or anyone else. You keep on broaching this topic as a false dichotomy.


I have explicitly said that it is not okay from any side. Anyone doing it, needs to be dealt with. If they can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned for it, that is fine. It is appalling that the Israeli government does not do that for their personnel.

They do not make it a national sport, however. The HAMAS attack on October 7, 2023 was quite different. They had no reason to attack the civilians at all, but they did it anyway.

Yeah, Israel is not pure on this either, in the past. Their guarding the Sabra refugee camp and the other refugee camp (I don't remember the name) while the Lebanese Christian Militia murdered a large number of people are a primary example. Even though the IDF did not participate directly in the massacre, they acted in support of it and should be held responsible along with the militias they were aiding.

I was highly critical of Israel when it happened back in the early 1980s and I have been highly critical of them ever since. I have never condoned those actions by Israel and would love to see everyone involved in it prosecuted.

I am not the one here trying to justify violence because of earlier wrongs. Why do you justify such violence when it is committed by a terrorist organization against Jews?

If it had been Israel murdering the Palestinians on October 7, 2023 then I would be as strongly opposed to them doing so as I am to HAMAS doing so to Jews on October 7, 2023.