[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 5:51 pm

kokopelli wrote:
I was highly critical of Israel when it happened back in the early 1980s and I have been highly critical of them ever since. I have never condoned those actions by Israel and would love to see everyone involved in it prosecuted.


You claim this, but your staunch defence of Israel's actions doesn't seem to sync with your claims.

kokopelli wrote:
If it had been Israel murdering the Palestinians on October 7, 2023 then I would be as strongly opposed to them doing so as I am to HAMAS doing so to Jews on October 7, 2023.


Israel's been murdering Palestinians all along and yet you run defence for the terrorist state of Israel.

You can make whatever claims you'd like but your actions betray your sympathies and demonstrate your claims about your own attitudes to be questionable.


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


TwilightPrincess
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07 Jan 2025, 5:54 pm

I am not and have never justified violence against anyone. Saying that October 7th did not occur in a vacuum is simply stating a fact. It’s not justifying what took place on that date.

Israel’s use of torture and sexual abuse of detainees is well known, and it goes back decades. Somehow some decide to only talk about Hamas using such tactics.

Here’s a couple articles from the UN on Israel’s use of sexual abuse and torture although they aren’t the only or necessarily the best ones.

Quote:
“Israel’s widespread and systemic abuse of Palestinians in detention and arbitrary arrest practices over decades, coupled with the absence of any restraints by the Israeli State since 7 October 2023, paint a shocking picture enabled by absolute impunity,” the experts said.

Around 9,500 Palestinians, including hundreds of children and women, are currently imprisoned—around one-third without charge or trial. Another unknown number are arbitrarily being held in detention facilities and ad hoc camps following a wave of arrest and abduction campaigns across Palestinian territory that targeted men, women and children particularly following 7 October.

The experts received substantiated reports of widespread abuse, torture, sexual assault and rape, amid atrocious inhumane conditions, with at least 53 Palestinians apparently dying as a result in 10 months.

Countless testimonies by men and women speak of detainees in cage-like enclosures, tied to beds blindfolded and in diapers, stripped naked, deprived of adequate healthcare, food, water and sleep, electrocutions including on their genitals, blackmail and cigarette burns. In addition, victims spoke of loud music played until their ears bled, attacks by dogs, waterboarding, suspension from ceilings and severe sexual and gender-based violence.

“Allegations of gang-rape of a Palestinian detainee, now shockingly supported by voices in the Israeli political establishment and society, provide irrefutable evidence that the moral compass is lost,” the experts said. In February 2024, a number of experts also expressed grave concern regarding the reports of sexual and other forms of gender-based violence committed against Palestinian women and girls in Israeli detention.

The Special Rapporteur on the occupied Palestinian territory investigated Israel’s detention practices in 2023 and called on UN Member States to intervene and the International Criminal Court to promptly investigate what appeared to be a consolidated crime against humanity. The experts regret this call was not heeded.

“Torture practices are irredeemably unlawful and constitute international crimes, yet form part of the modus operandi of Israel’s notorious detention and torture system,” they warned. “These practices are intended to punish Palestinians for resisting occupation and seek to destroy them individually and collectively.”

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases ... reventable

Quote:
Palestinian women and girls have reportedly been arbitrarily executed in Gaza, often together with family members, including their children, according to information received. “We are shocked by reports of the deliberate targeting and extrajudicial killing of Palestinian women and children in places where they sought refuge, or while fleeing. Some of them were reportedly holding white pieces of cloth when they were killed by the Israeli army or affiliated forces,” the experts said.

[…]

“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers. At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence,” the experts said. They also noted that photos of female detainees in degrading circumstances were also reportedly taken by the Israeli army and uploaded online.

The experts expressed concern that an unknown number of Palestinian women and children, including girls, have reportedly gone missing after contact with the Israeli army in Gaza. “There are disturbing reports of at least one female infant forcibly transferred by the Israeli army into Israel, and of children being separated from their parents, whose whereabouts remain unknown,” they said.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases ... ns-against

More about the abuse of detainees here:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/in ... =113380902



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:56 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Are you gong to say that MSN is another right wing publication?


It's an opinion piece from Newsweek. Newsweek regularly allows propaganda pieces to be published without any critical commentary.

John Spencer is nothing more than a propagandist, why should his claims be taken without even a grain of salt? His job is to spin things as favourably as possible for Israel.

For TP: The article was first published on Mar 24, updated Mar 26, 2024.


Nope. It was from MSN.

As for propagandists, he would not have reached his position at West Point as a propagandist. There are plenty of propagandists i this thread working overtime to try to excuse HAMAS for their terrorist attacks on civilians.



TwilightPrincess
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07 Jan 2025, 5:56 pm

It was linked to MSN, but it is a Newsweek article.

kokopelli wrote:
There are plenty of propagandists i this thread working overtime to try to excuse HAMAS for their terrorist attacks on civilians.

It seems more like that’s how you’re interpreting it.



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
I was highly critical of Israel when it happened back in the early 1980s and I have been highly critical of them ever since. I have never condoned those actions by Israel and would love to see everyone involved in it prosecuted.


You claim this, but your staunch defence of Israel's actions doesn't seem to sync with your claims.


It might only appear that way because this thread is about the terrorist attacks of HAMAS on October 7, 2023 and the consequences of those terrorist attacks.

Quote:
kokopelli wrote:
If it had been Israel murdering the Palestinians on October 7, 2023 then I would be as strongly opposed to them doing so as I am to HAMAS doing so to Jews on October 7, 2023.


Israel's been murdering Palestinians all along and yet you run defence for the terrorist state of Israel.

You can make whatever claims you'd like but your actions betray your sympathies and demonstrate your claims about your own attitudes to be questionable.


That's a lie.



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 5:59 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
It was linked to MSN, but it is a Newsweek article.
kokopelli wrote:
There are plenty of propagandists i this thread working overtime to try to excuse HAMAS for their terrorist attacks on civilians.

It seems more like that’s how you’re interpreting it.


There are consequences to actions. HAMAS started this with their terrorism. Israel has no choice but to deal with them for those attacks.



funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 6:03 pm

kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Are you gong to say that MSN is another right wing publication?


It's an opinion piece from Newsweek. Newsweek regularly allows propaganda pieces to be published without any critical commentary.

John Spencer is nothing more than a propagandist, why should his claims be taken without even a grain of salt? His job is to spin things as favourably as possible for Israel.

For TP: The article was first published on Mar 24, updated Mar 26, 2024.


Nope. It was from MSN.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-cre ... on-1883286

There's the original source.

MSN reposts articles from a number of sources, including Newsweek. That's why it shows a big Newsweek logo on the MSN version.



kokopelli wrote:
As for propagandists, he would not have reached his position at West Point as a propagandist. There are plenty of propagandists i this thread working overtime to try to excuse HAMAS for their terrorist attacks on civilians.


Imagine insisting West Point graduates never go on to become propagandists and expecting to be taken seriously afterwards. Come on Koko, you don't seriously believe that West Point graduates don't ever go on to become mouthpieces for American or other aligned militaries?


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 6:03 pm

kokopelli wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
It was linked to MSN, but it is a Newsweek article.
kokopelli wrote:
There are plenty of propagandists i this thread working overtime to try to excuse HAMAS for their terrorist attacks on civilians.

It seems more like that’s how you’re interpreting it.


There are consequences to actions. HAMAS started this with their terrorism. Israel has no choice but to deal with them for those attacks.


That's a lie. HAMAS didn't even exist when this situation started back in 1947.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 6:13 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
As for propagandists, he would not have reached his position at West Point as a propagandist. There are plenty of propagandists i this thread working overtime to try to excuse HAMAS for their terrorist attacks on civilians.


Imagine insisting West Point graduates never go on to become propagandists and expecting to be taken seriously afterwards. Come on Koko, you don't seriously believe that West Point graduates don't ever go on to become mouthpieces for American or other aligned militaries?[/quote]

That's not what I said at all. Far from it.

It is absurd to imagine that in this day and age, anyone who thinks it is perfectly okay to kill all the civilians you want could become a Professor of Urban Warfare at West Point.



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 6:14 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
That's a lie. HAMAS didn't even exist when this situation started back in 1947.


Nobody has claimed that it did exist back then.



funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 6:18 pm

kokopelli wrote:
That's not what I said at all. Far from it.

It is absurd to imagine that in this day and age, anyone who thinks it is perfectly okay to kill all the civilians you want could become a Professor of Urban Warfare at West Point.


That's not what I said at all. Far from it.

Your talking points consistently rely on dishonesty and intentional misinterpretation of what has been said, likely because dishonesty is the only way to defend Israel's actions and you know it as well as everyone who criticizes Israel knows it.

If you have to rely on bad faith and deception to argue your case you have no case to make and there is nothing to be gained by treating your opinions as well-informed or credible.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


funeralxempire
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07 Jan 2025, 6:20 pm

kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That's a lie. HAMAS didn't even exist when this situation started back in 1947.


Nobody has claimed that it did exist back then.


kokopelli wrote:
There are consequences to actions. HAMAS started this with their terrorism. Israel has no choice but to deal with them for those attacks.


Funny, either you're claiming that this started on October 7th (a lie) or that Hamas is somehow responsible for the founding of Israel, which is actually what started this.

Either way, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 8:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
That's not what I said at all. Far from it.

It is absurd to imagine that in this day and age, anyone who thinks it is perfectly okay to kill all the civilians you want could become a Professor of Urban Warfare at West Point.


That's not what I said at all. Far from it.

Your talking points consistently rely on dishonesty and intentional misinterpretation of what has been said, likely because dishonesty is the only way to defend Israel's actions and you know it as well as everyone who criticizes Israel knows it.

If you have to rely on bad faith and deception to argue your case you have no case to make and there is nothing to be gained by treating your opinions as well-informed or credible.


You ignorantly claimed:
Quote:
Imagine insisting West Point graduates never go on to become propagandists and expecting to be taken seriously afterwards.
You are putting words into my mouth that I not only never said, but I would never say..

Sure, some West Point graduates could become propagandists. I did not claim that they never did.

On the other hand, a position of Professor of Urban Warfare at West Point is not a position that any propagandist would fit into. A propagandist would be doing a disservice to West Point and the cadets. Anyone aspiring to that position who was a propagandist would quickly be weeded out if they did somehow manage to weasel their way into it. If you want an honest analysis of the facts, you do not want a propagandist which would, of course, eliminate most of the people posting here.



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 8:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That's a lie. HAMAS didn't even exist when this situation started back in 1947.


Nobody has claimed that it did exist back then.


kokopelli wrote:
There are consequences to actions. HAMAS started this with their terrorism. Israel has no choice but to deal with them for those attacks.


Funny, either you're claiming that this started on October 7th (a lie) or that Hamas is somehow responsible for the founding of Israel, which is actually what started this.

Either way, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.


Stop lying.



kokopelli
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07 Jan 2025, 8:38 pm

It comes to my mind that not a one of you have any idea where my biases lie.

My bias is not in favor of Israel at all. I am, admittedly, biased strongly in favor of the Palestine Christians who have been horribly treated by both the Israelis and the Islamic Palestinians.

In spite of my bias for the Palestinian Christians, if they had committed the attack on October 7, 2023, I would be just as strongly outspoken against them.



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07 Jan 2025, 8:44 pm

kokopelli wrote:
Stop lying.


Lying is when kokopelli doesn't appreciate what one has observed, apparently. :roll:


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.