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WTH? Taxpayer-paid sex changes?

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visagrunt
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12 Sep 2012, 3:11 pm

John_Browning wrote:
I'll admit the health system needs work (what that looks like is extremely debatable), but even then, sex changes to not fit into that system; Neither does other cosmetic surgeries, and neither does viagra.


On that point we will have to agree to disagree. Sexual health is a part of overall health, and a healthy sex life leads to better health outcomes across the spectrum. Mental health is a part of overall health, and therapies that remove a barrier to good mental health improve outcomes across the spectrum.

And as for costmetic surgeries, you are going to have to use a much narrower description. a facelift or a tummy tuck is unlikely to be medically necessary. But procedures lke reconstructive surgery and grafting are an entirely different matter. Are you suggesting that a person disfigured in a motor vehicle accident should have to live with the disfigurement?

Fnord wrote:
Neither does anything other than 1200-2000 calories per day, a cot to sleep on at night, and basic medical care. No TV, no conjugal visits (no visitors at all!), no Internet, no cell phones ... no outside contact, except with their lawyers. Just lock 'em in cages, hose them down once a day, feed them, and check to see if they've committed suicide yet.

They're CRIMINALS, for dog's sake!


Yes. And those criminals will, by and large, leave the prison population one day and return to society. What kind of people do you want returning to society? Healthy, well adjusted people who have had an opportunity to improve their education and their work skills? Or people who have been mistreated and whose underlying deficits have been simply aggravated into sociopathy?

Your words make for lovely rhetoric, but they make for self-destructive public policy.


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12 Sep 2012, 7:53 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Neither does anything other than 1200-2000 calories per day, a cot to sleep on at night, and basic medical care. No TV, no conjugal visits (no visitors at all!), no Internet, no cell phones ... no outside contact, except with their lawyers. Just lock 'em in cages, hose them down once a day, feed them, and check to see if they've committed suicide yet.

They're CRIMINALS, for dog's sake!


Yes. And those criminals will, by and large, leave the prison population one day and return to society. What kind of people do you want returning to society? Healthy, well adjusted people who have had an opportunity to improve their education and their work skills? Or people who have been mistreated and whose underlying deficits have been simply aggravated into sociopathy?

Your words make for lovely rhetoric, but they make for self-destructive public policy.


Again, Fnord is right, not you visagrunt, we're not talking about a petty thief here, we're talking a cold-blooded murderer here. You might have a point if this individual had committed a much lesser crime, but the individual murdered another human being (if I remember correctly the guy murdered his own wife in cold blood).



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12 Sep 2012, 11:14 pm

600,000 leave prison every year. Most got 40 years for a crack rock, and were released after 20.

They did get an education.

What was a system for removing some people from continuing their hobbies, has turned into a business.

It still has the function of keeping killers out of public life. It is not the answer for everything.

It now costs more than schools, and that cost is growing. Long term this is not supportable.

Change is coming.



visagrunt
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13 Sep 2012, 12:28 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Again, Fnord is right, not you visagrunt, we're not talking about a petty thief here, we're talking a cold-blooded murderer here. You might have a point if this individual had committed a much lesser crime, but the individual murdered another human being (if I remember correctly the guy murdered his own wife in cold blood).


The gravity of the crime does not change the principle

Prisoners--all prisoners--have a right to the necessities of life, including food, clothing, shelter and medical care. And because they cannot obtain these services from anyone exept the state, the state has a positive obligation to provide them.

Furthermore, those programs that serve to provide prisoners with education, employment skills and more positive social adjustment and programs that will serve to benefit the community in the long run. Criminal law should be about crime prevention, not merely punishment.

And bear in mind, even if this woman never gets out of prison, she still lives in the prison population, and her presence has an impact on all of the other prisoners.


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15 Sep 2012, 8:31 am

He strangled his wife to death, then left her body in an abandoned car in a parking lot, to decay until it was discovered.....
And we are concerned with his sexual identity?
I am not sure why he did not get the death penalty, actually.

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15 Sep 2012, 10:21 pm

Sylkat wrote:
He strangled his wife to death, then left her body in an abandoned car in a parking lot, to decay until it was discovered.....
And we are concerned with his sexual identity?
I am not sure why he did not get the death penalty, actually.

Sylkat


Because the state he is in is run by Democrats that consider the lives of cold-blooded murderers to have more value than children that are still in the womb.



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18 Sep 2012, 12:21 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Because the state he is in is run by Democrats that consider the lives of cold-blooded murderers to have more value than children that are still in the womb.


Well, let's see. At the time of his conviction, the Governor of Massachusetts was William Weld. A Republican. But, in fairness, he was bound the the law of the state.

Post Furman Massachusetts has twice enacted death penalty legislation: in 1979 and in 1982. In both cases the Legislative majorities and the Governorship were all held by Democrats.

And whatever else you may believe, the individual in question is legally a woman, and it is legally incorrect to refer to him as, "he." I certainly won't appeal to your sense of politeness or good manners--but at least try to be accurate.


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18 Sep 2012, 5:49 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sylkat wrote:
He strangled his wife to death, then left her body in an abandoned car in a parking lot, to decay until it was discovered.....
And we are concerned with his sexual identity?
I am not sure why he did not get the death penalty, actually.

Sylkat


Because the state he is in is run by Democrats that consider the lives of cold-blooded murderers to have more value than children that are still in the womb.
Who said anything about abortion? This topic is about giving a convict a sex change so stick to that.



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18 Sep 2012, 6:12 pm

visagrunt wrote:
And whatever else you may believe, the individual in question is legally a woman, and it is legally incorrect to refer to him as, "he."

According to the article, the judge who allowed this used male pronouns throughout the order. Also, note the bolded bit.

Much more important than the legalities, however, is the impoliteness. It is impolite to refer to a transgendered person by the wrong pronoun (at least knowingly). I have specifically avoided using gendered pronouns with reference to techn0teen, so as to avoid accidentally being impolite. Techn0teen is a decent human being.

The man who murdered his wife, however, will not get that courtesy from me. He deliberately ended the life of the woman he had pledged to love and care for. Generally I am all in favor of being polite, but not to him.


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18 Sep 2012, 6:19 pm

I'd like to point out that standards of care (link) for those with Gender Dysphoria is very, very strict. If someone with Gender Dysphoria tries to get surgery without following proper procedure, they will be denied by all certified doctors in the US (there are few experienced in such surgery). The fact this person has gotten so far means they went through proper channels and has lived as HER preferred gender for sometime. This is can seen as a problem, as SHE probably gets attacked regularly. This means more problems for employees of the prison, especially for the guards and the medical staff who have to treat her wounds.

Every state law is different. In some states, in order to officially change their sex on their legal papers, they have to have undergo reassignment surgery (it's total BS and only exists because of transphobia). Her end game is probably to get the surgery so she can change her legal papers and then eventually be transferred to a female prison, where she will no longer anally probed. All in all, it's probably cheaper to give her the surgery than to repeatedly rush her off to the hospital every other week for the rest of her life.

My only grip is that it's unfair for the rest of us transfolk. We follow the rules and have to bend over backwards to get the amount of treatment she receives. I have to murder someone to finally get the surgery I so desperately need and probably won't get until I'm 40? What gives?



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18 Sep 2012, 7:49 pm

Pileo wrote:
I'd like to point out that standards of care (link) for those with Gender Dysphoria is very, very strict. If someone with Gender Dysphoria tries to get surgery without following proper procedure, they will be denied by all certified doctors in the US (there are few experienced in such surgery). The fact this person has gotten so far means they went through proper channels and has lived as HER preferred gender for sometime. This is can seen as a problem, as SHE probably gets attacked regularly. This means more problems for employees of the prison, especially for the guards and the medical staff who have to treat her wounds.

Every state law is different. In some states, in order to officially change their sex on their legal papers, they have to have undergo reassignment surgery (it's total BS and only exists because of transphobia). Her end game is probably to get the surgery so she can change her legal papers and then eventually be transferred to a female prison, where she will no longer anally probed. All in all, it's probably cheaper to give her the surgery than to repeatedly rush her off to the hospital every other week for the rest of her life.

My only grip is that it's unfair for the rest of us transfolk. We follow the rules and have to bend over backwards to get the amount of treatment she receives. I have to murder someone to finally get the surgery I so desperately need and probably won't get until I'm 40? What gives?
i am expressing no opinion on this matter but would like to shed light on one thing.
i am from mass and the individual in this case was into cross dressing before he/she commited the crime and went to jail.i remember the case in the local news. eccentric cross dressing doctor kills wife and so on.
i dont believe this prisoner is doing this just to get transfered to a womans prison


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18 Sep 2012, 8:56 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
i am expressing no opinion on this matter but would like to shed light on one thing.
i am from mass and the individual in this case was into cross dressing before he/she commited the crime and went to jail.i remember the case in the local news. eccentric cross dressing doctor kills wife and so on.
i dont believe this prisoner is doing this just to get transfered to a womans prison


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Given she's gotten to the point to be able to get a sex change shows she really does have Gender Dysphoria. I made mention in my last post that it's really difficult to get through the process.

What transsexuals want, ultimately, is to be considered legally their preferred gender and to live life as that preferred gender. In her case, that might not be possible until she gets the surgery due to state law. As she is currently in a male prison, she's not living as her preferred gender and probably greatly desires to transferred to a female prison. If that's even possible, I'm not Massachusetts lawyer. Its speculation on my part.

So, essentially what I mean is that surgery is a step towards ultimate goal and not the goal itself.



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19 Sep 2012, 5:28 am

Pileo wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
i am expressing no opinion on this matter but would like to shed light on one thing.
i am from mass and the individual in this case was into cross dressing before he/she commited the crime and went to jail.i remember the case in the local news. eccentric cross dressing doctor kills wife and so on.
i dont believe this prisoner is doing this just to get transfered to a womans prison


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Given she's gotten to the point to be able to get a sex change shows she really does have Gender Dysphoria. I made mention in my last post that it's really difficult to get through the process.

What transsexuals want, ultimately, is to be considered legally their preferred gender and to live life as that preferred gender. In her case, that might not be possible until she gets the surgery due to state law. As she is currently in a male prison, she's not living as her preferred gender and probably greatly desires to transferred to a female prison. If that's even possible, I'm not Massachusetts lawyer. Its speculation on my part.

So, essentially what I mean is that surgery is a step towards ultimate goal and not the goal itself.
no problem i was not upset at all.it was a high profile case in the new england area 15 years ago but there is no way you could have known that


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20 Sep 2012, 6:02 pm

The individual in question pre-meditatedly killed his wife and left her to rot.
Sorry for the bluntness,but from what I have been able to find, he had been hitting or beating her previously.
He wants expensive surgery while hundreds of incarcerated people of either gender or any sexual orientation cannot get adequate dental care, medical care, education(many have turned to crime due to simply being unable to read or do basic math), due to lack of money in the prison system
These people need psychiatric help, job training, anger management and inter-personal behavior training and cannot get what they need because there is not enough MONEY.
When every cavity and abscess is fixed,and every illness or condition, especially the possibly contagious ones, and every convict is job-ready, then, if there is enough money left, THEN consider the procedure.

Sylkat



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20 Sep 2012, 6:21 pm

i believe what he did was he shot his wife at point blank range with .300 weatherby magnum rifle.yes there was a history prior domestic abuse as well.he never denied the crime but pleaded insanity


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21 Sep 2012, 1:26 pm

Sylkat wrote:
The individual in question pre-meditatedly killed his wife and left her to rot.
Sorry for the bluntness,but from what I have been able to find, he had been hitting or beating her previously.
He wants expensive surgery while hundreds of incarcerated people of either gender or any sexual orientation cannot get adequate dental care, medical care, education(many have turned to crime due to simply being unable to read or do basic math), due to lack of money in the prison system
These people need psychiatric help, job training, anger management and inter-personal behavior training and cannot get what they need because there is not enough MONEY.
When every cavity and abscess is fixed,and every illness or condition, especially the possibly contagious ones, and every convict is job-ready, then, if there is enough money left, THEN consider the procedure.

Sylkat


Perhaps the correct solution is to ensure that government actually provides the amount of money that is required to maintain its prison population. American's have fetishized crime and punishment, and have created a vast underclass of prisoners, without making corresponding commitments to ensure that they have adequate housing and services.

I think the expense is a canard. Would we countenance depriving a prisoner of kidney dialysis? It's vastly more expensive than MTF sex reassignment surgery, but we view it as life-saving and thus on a different level. Should government pay for botox? Very inexpensive, but not medically necessary.

At the end of the day, I think we have to remember first principles:

1) When approved by physicians and psychologists, sex reassignment is medically necessary surgery.
2) Prisoners have a different relationship with the state than other citizens and cannot obtain the necessities of life from any other source.

If you put these two principles together, the result should be a foregone conclusion. The fact that other prisoner are in desperate need of housing, care and education does not diminish this woman's need. It merely mandates that government must come up to the plate in these areas as well.


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