Heat Wave In SW Could Be Worst Ever

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Yes, those pictures describe what the West USED to look like decades ago, though it never got as bad as China is now. It is also the case that we're not talking about past problems, but problems occurring today. I say before we all freeze or sweat in the dark that we put pressure on Asia to come up to our standards and see if that ameliorates the problems.

If Asia is the primary source of climate change, would it be better to put pressure on them to change their filthy ways, or to allow the climate to change?

Again, the subtext of all of this is that somehow, some way, the West is to blame, even if the evidence points elsewhere. Under the circumstances, I can't help but think the global warming movement is at bottom an irrational, blinding hatred for the West, and the reason I'm more than a bit skeptical.

I don't hate any specific entity, I can see that some who argue these causes come across that way.

When we in the west can't manage our own emissions or meet targets we have set for ourselves then the chance of hauling other countries up is a long shot. These standards cost a lot to implement, these costs would then be passed on to the manufacturing. It would then be likely that consumer goods would cost the same as if they were produced in the west.

The UK imports gas mainly for heating. We have the technology now to be building super insulated passive energy housing. Why don't we, because it affects the profits, same as usual.

Still, my point is can we afford to take a gamble on this?

If in fact Asia is the real culprit, and nothing is done about them to stop their filth, won't the problems continue no matter how far back into the Stone Age we put ourselves? Are you willing to gamble that we are the problem instead of Asia?

But to answer your question, I'm not ready to live in prehistoric conditions without fire--which is exactly what controlling CO2 emissions is all about--until I see Asia come up to our standards. Once they do, and if our climate problems aren't resolved, then I would be willing to consider sacrifices. But not one minute before.

Again, I will take the global warming crowd seriously when they treat Asian pollution the same way they treat pollution in the West.

I would like to make an analogy:

I used to work on the east coast of the UK. The local port is used by ships bringing in timber from Russia and Eastern Europe via the Baltic Sea. This is the last trade at this old sea port, it's a pretty sad sight. These ships only just fit up the river and have to make a certain speed to maintain steerage. The local guys used to dig the foreshore for fishing bait. Trouble is the wake of these ships scours the foreshore and washes the mud away.

The local guys would not accept that they were part of the problem.

If you have ever stood on a beach in the tide you know that once you break the surface tension then the scouring by the tide is accelerated and you sink. This is exactly the same effect as seen on the river shore. I used to often get into arguments with these guys, they would not accept that they were part of the problem. I tried to convince them that if they at least back-filled their digging the scouring would be reduced but there was no profit in that. There won't be any fishing bait left to harvest when there is no mud either

That is not a statement that I have made so I don't see your point.



Or this one.



That's your choice.

Now back to the original argument:
Will something be done about the over consumption of water resources in SW United States?

Nielsen, actually I agree with you. We in the West are concerned about our environment, and are very conscious of how we treat it. Compare your English river with that picture of the Chinese river that is neon pink. Here it is again in case you missed it:

http://www.treehugger.com/natural-scien ... china.html

I feel the same way you do. I live in a very unspoiled part of Texas and consider it my duty to be a good steward. This morning leaving for work, I saw a mama quail with her chicks and a deer before I even got off my property. I want to preserve our natural and cultural inheritances--meaning the culture that values these things for their own sake--our Western cultures.

Granted, the West didn't used to be so conscientious. And many places still aren't. I read recently that in Mexico, only about half of their garbage ever makes it into garbage dumps; the rest of it is litter. I saw a video clip of a Mexican woman teaching her young son the right way to throw his trash out of a bus window. Today that is unthinkable in the West, and we should be proud of ourselves despite things not being perfect.

The reason our conscientiousness is a good thing is because pollution is not only ugly, but toxic. We need to impress this on other people, especially those in Asia. I think when we do that the climate change problems will dissipate. Wasn't it Dillinger who said he robbed banks because that's where the money is at? By the same token, if we're looking to deal with environmental problems, we have to look at where the pollution is at. Though we're not perfect, we cleaned up our act a long time ago.

In any case, you have been very civil, and I appreciate that. Even if we can't agree, I do hope we can establish some clarity so we know understand each other.

I feel the only solution there is to get our own houses in order and stopping the import of Far East goods, and suffer the premium costs.
I'm not sure how much trade the US has in this direction but there is very little manufacturing still happening in the UK and to a degree, the rest of Europe too.
The UK is now a nation of warehouses full of Chinese junk, service industries and entertainment.
I now can not buy any new power tools made in the EU.

Nielsen, all I can say is Amen, bro. In fact, the entire reason production has been shifted to Asia and the Third World is so businessmen lacking heart and conscience can enrich themselves even more by not having to worry about things like pollution and worker safety regulations. What's just as bad is how it hurts Western workers, particularly young people who need those jobs to support themselves. To read threads here on WP about young aspies desperate for work, but not able to find it because of Western trade policies, makes my blood boil. But that's a topic for another day....

The climate is -ALWAYS- changing.

ruveyn

*is glad to have air conditioning*

It went from way below average and raining every other day to our usual summer sizzle over here. Bleh, I hate heat. Ours is always muggy.

Some problems are complex, like making China and India stop. Overall, the rest of the world has cleaned up its act. London used to look like China, Pea Soup fogs were even thicker, and the deaths were called natural.

China and India will suffer from Acid Rain, the plants will die, a lot of the rivers no longer reach the ocean, what water there is contains things you should not drink. It will shorten their lifespans, but that has to be compared to the life of a rice farming family in the past. Life was never good.

Until it exceeds the death toll from famines, which in the last hundred years killed as many as 35,000,000 in a single year, and were regular, the present is better. Just like Birth Control and Abortion are better than smothering your children at birth, because there is no way to feed them.

They will reduce thier numbers, one way or another. Other Post Industrial lands did recover once they stopped, so China is paying a short term price for reaching an industrial future.

I am sure that does affect the rest of the world. All records do show a population drop in post industrial lands. It takes generations, and is offset by extended lives. Those who lived through Pittsburg, the river catching fire in Clevland, are living twenty years longer than their parents from a cleaner time. The good old days were not that good.

Over recorded time, people lived to 42. From Rome to recently over most of the world, that was it for the days of man. Now in post industrial lands that has doubled. The Japanese who lived through WWII, now die at 90.

Their children and grand children are a much smaller group. They have to support the economy, government, and an aging population that does not work, and does not die.

We also have the problem, and a normal human life for this current generation could well exceed a hundred years. The War Babies did have less children, which hardly anyone can afford currently, our birth rate has hit a historic low. These Millinials are the ones that have to pay for it all.

The War Babies paid for a generation that died at 55. The war did help reduce their numbers. We have a Demographic problem that will become an economic problem, starting now as the War Babies retire for forty golden years of being creepy old people. Global Warming only compounds the problem.

We did clean up the water and air, got the Lead out of gas, but it is still around by the millions of tons. It will be for hundreds of thousands of years.

Bad choices in land management left scars. Since we brought Freedom to this land it has been total extractive looting, with no thought of a future. It is summed up in the bumper sticker, "Let the bastards freeze in the dark."

Our natural resources are given away to those with Friends in Congress, where they pay less than the cost of the roads, for logging old growth forests, for export.

We The People's Oil, is sold for much less. Oil Companies make more than most Governments. While Norway for example lets the companies that produce their oil have less than 10%, and the rest goes to the people who have invested, and now have the best medical and educational system, and own over 1% of The World's Stocks. They also have much stricter enviormental laws. They have companies standing in line to comply and drill their oil.

A forest is more than trees, it is the gills of the life of the land, and the water cycle. I am not worried about Spotted Owls, I am worried about the plume of moisture that wicked over the land for thousands of years suddenly ending. That is what rain and snow are made from. The future can get by without Spotted Owls. Water is Sacred to all life.

Our Farm Policy has destroyed the family farm. Corporate Farming got the benefit, and the Government financed the market manipulation and buyout. This has speeded up degrading the land.

The cost of all this Corporate Welfare is being put on the Baby Bust Generation, to go with their Student Loans, and lack of jobs.

It would take full employment and a Minium Wage of $200,000 a year to make these numbers work.

We have a few problems, it is time for Plan B.

Outline or sketch Plan B, please.

ruveyn

Read a news article today, by 2050 food production must double, and that is not happening. By 2040 there will be a global fresh water shortage.

That is just population, and does not take into account global warming, the decline of honey bees, extended droughts, soil exhaustion, dust storms, or the effect on crop production of the pollution in Asia.

We are already at the break line, where need exceeds production. Doing the same thing on a larger scale will only speed up the process.

The land is the basis of all life, all wealth, and we have been exploitive. We can wait a thousand years for nature to restore it's self, after we are gone, or put the Earth on life support.

There is a band where crops grow on one side and cattle feed on the other, it runs down the New Mexico, Colorado eastern borders, through West Texas, Oklahoma Panhandle, and north to Canada.

A hundred mile wide irrigated windbrake would improve both sides. It would still take thirty years to develop trees. It would take tapping the Great Lakes to irrigate it,

Most of the water would evaporate, cooling the area, mostly toward the cropland, as that is how the wind blows, and that would produce more rain, regular, even, over many times the area. It would moderate storms, draining them of water vapor.

Changing the climate is not a small thing. This would be small scale terraforming.

The land has to be paid for, the cost of pipelines, and a lot of labor to plant, tend, and preserve. It would be at least a generation before it might be self supporting. A hundred years is more likely.

Also it has to be done while we are beyond broke, and during a worldwide famine. Overall it will produce more food in the rain shadow, but there will be starving people and cattle that will want to loot it.

Protecting the best farm land from spreading drought is the one thing that will provide food for the future. Not much else counts when the issues are food and water.

Even if half the world dies off by 2060, we will still be around. Not me, but some alive now. The drought will continue, the European honey bee seems on the way out, California crops are suffering from heat and lack of water. Food production will decline.

There will never be a better time to act.

Along the way the Government and Economic system will have to be replaced. The Government panders to special interests, the economic system is special interests, there is nothing left to tax but assets, and taxes are going up as the debt market has peaked.

We do not have to overthrow them, they are overthrowing each other.

They do not have the funds to continue Social Security, they spent it on wars, they lost. Like all Ponzis, the day comes when the lie gets called.

Never invest your retirement in the company you work for. ours went into Treasury Bonds. They forgot it was our money.

They also forgot it was our country. The President of Egypt forgot. The President of Turkey faces election in a year. Ours comes right after that. They all supported Jihad in Sryia.

Plan B produces a lot of jobs, more than the WPA, CCC, in the real defense of our country. It could use a lot of young people with degrees. The pay will include a reduction of student loan debt. They will all be Citizens.

It is a Science Program, Life, and how to live with it. It will be done by those who will still be here when we are gone. They will have a lot of self interest in getting it right. It will get better and better with age.

The future has a right to build the world they want to live in, and the present has an obligation to support them.

In the advanced industrial countries they can build power plants to desalinate sea water. For the Lesser People, too damned bad.

ruveyn

I actually miss the desert now, it doesn't feel nearly as bad as this heat in Boston that seems to stick to you