transgender student OKed for locker room access

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Hello nurseangela,

It has already been shown that the student has not been given 'free-range' of the locker room. (Please see the last post on page 1.)

This is not about sex, no trans female is going to be wandering around a woman's locker room displaying their genitals. The reason we did not have to deal with this when we were at school, is that these people were then forced to live in hiding, a life of misery and often choosing suicide as an easier option.

Can you take a minute or two to consider how a transgender person must feel? Imagine how much stress a person must go through to decide to transition. It is not only after they have been given access to a locker room that they start to experience derision and bullying.

I can understand your concerns, that a pervert may try to exploit this situation for their own needs, but try to consider that trans people are aiming for acceptance, not some form of sexual gratification, before making judgement.

Its very fascinating to see the conflict.

This is a dilemma for society.

[rhetorical] Should non-passing trans people be permitted into the locker room/shower areas ?

Clearly, people will get "freaked out" when they see an apparent man in the women's locker room.

Regarding the right to privacy, has anyone launched a challenge yet to ensure they can shower and change without having to appear naked in front of other people?

Clearly, only good-looking, fashionable, feminine looking women should be allowed to use the women's restroom/locker room. Everyone else crosses the line and shows that a pure sex & gender binary does not actually exist; they'll have to either use the men's room, find a single occupant room somewhere or just go home/wait until they get home.

< / sarcasm >

edit: I forgot, they should be socially adept, too. Because that's part of being a woman, right?

Last edited by Edenthiel on 11 Dec 2015, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Consequence-free hate speech isn't a right either.

(Edited -B19)

This is the same argument that Donald Trump uses to justify expressing his racist, homophobic and dangerously ignorant opinions. The members of the Westboro Baptist Church behave in exactly the same way. Expressing an opinion in public carries responsibilities, not least a duty to not stigmatise or incite hatred towards individuals or groups. If a person can't live up to these basic civic responsibilities, then they are not fit to express their opinions in public.

In Europe we are fortunate to have laws that forbid hate speech. So this sort of behaviour has consequences.

We should also bear in mind the old adage: 'Opinions are like *ssholes: everybody's got one'.

I can't believe the level of transphobia and hatred that is being allowed to be expressed on this thread, just because some people are totally ignorant of what it means to be transgendered and therefore feel it's ok to judge and hate trangender people. If you don't want to educate yourself (there is ample scientific research out there, so one has no excuse not to be informed unless one doesn't WANT to be informed) then stop talking about the issue and spreading hatred and misinformation that harms real people who don't deserve your hatred or ignorance. Transgender men and women are human beings and to imply they are all perverts or just trying to predate on young girls or something is sickening and wrong. Build yourself a time machine and go live in previous decades where your ignorance will be more acceptable to other ignorant fools, if you don't like the "PC culture" we live in now--leave the present to those of us who actually want to progress and learn and move forward as a species, together.

I have to ask - would postings with this level of hatred be allowed on Wrong Planet if they were focused on other people's skin color, or maybe their intellect? Of course not. These comments have been allowed by the moderator(s)though, and they hurt. They are an attack on my daughter and myself and every other trans person out there.

Are they a personal attack? I'm not sure; they are attacking a group based on an intrinsic trait, but it sure feels personal to those of us with that trait. These comments are aggressive, and violent and a method to hold power over someone else. That's not why people come to WP, but if they are allowed and they spread and the forums gain a transphobic sentiment or feel, there will be less people with autism who feel comfortable here. And that's sad because of the higher incidence of two being co-morbid.

I don't know if they would be, but I think they should be. We have subforums that are meant to be safe spaces, do we not?

I wonder what reaction I'd get if I posted the study that showed black women to be rated as the least attractive, and Asian women as the most attractive?

Eh, when it comes to trans* issues, I'm used to seeing people argue past each other. I guess it insulates us all from the risk of having to admit we're wrong.

I wonder whether I am the only one who never felt naturally more uncomfortable naked around someone of the opposite sex or gender than around those of their own.

When I was a little boy, at home, my parents were often naked, and so was I. They made a point to have no taboo on nudity and that's what I perceived as normal till I found the outside world didn't work that way. They did warn me about this, though my aspie naïveté was ill-prepared to anticipate the rich and clever set of rules and resources to ashame you this grants people. I wonder whether today my parents would be considered to be sexually harassing me, though I'd find such an accusation outrageous.

So I learned to be ashamed if anyone saw me naked, including my parents. Only many years later was it implied to me that I was supposed to be uncomfortable if my female peers saw me naked, but not if the male ones did. I felt equally uncomfortable in front of both, and still would if I weren't worried women would charge me with harassment or there'd be some other nasty social consequence due to the way others feel on these issues.

So is it not okay to feel uncomfortable naked around people of your own sex? I think we get no respect because it marks us as weak and poor sports.

Penis didn't go over so well in my first post in this thread, I thought biological just might. I see no matter how much logic you try to inject into a thread like this it gets lost on others. I didn't misgender anyone, the boy in question is biologically a boy, no matter what his head tells him. If you want to see that as trans hatred, you'd be just as wrong as you believe that I am. I have no problem with his gender, until he wants to take it where it doesn't belong... into a locker/bath room made for biological females only. And yet, transgenders see the problem, they know the problem, they just don't care. They see it as ok to tell others that they have a right to be there. They want respect but aren't willing to respect other peoples feelings on the subject because to them the other people are being transphobic... that's pure BS!

I have yet to see a logical argument by transgenders on this issue. Just words like, disrespecting the pronouns, transphobia, trans hatred, misgender, etc., etc. . A lot of labeling of opponents to the issue yet not one good argument whatsoever for their cause.

I don't see any hatred.

Did you watch the video? Parents are very concerned about this.

Parents for privacy
http://d211parentsforprivacy.weebly.com/

"Any access, even so-called 'restricted access' with the condition of using privacy curtains, still does not protect the basic privacy rights of minor girls in the locker room. The female students are undressing/dressing while someone of the opposite sex is walking past on the way to or from the privacy curtains".

When you're not the subject of the hatred, it's really easy not to see it. Especially if you intentionally look away when saying you don't see it. Then you're not technically lying, are you? If you're not trying to understand on purpose, you wouldn't be seeing the situation clearly enough to recognise that your ignorance is harming someone. Why should you care? Caring about other people and trying to understand their different experience from your own is for dumb SJWs and the "PC Police", amirite?

This goes way beyond belief, RoadRatt. Beyond "sincerely held belief" even. The problem is your definition of "biological" or even male/female (or boy/girl). You are *choosing* to base it on a single body part based on nothing but tradition (or Tradition). You are deciding for other people what *makes* them a man or woman / boy or girl. The actual biology of human sex dimorphism is nothing like that, and your choice for them is sometimes inaccurate.

20 years ago there was a study (Zhou, et all 1994). Statistically insignificant, insufficient methodology, but that's sometimes the case when something new is discovered because you don't know what you are looking for. Zhou found that human brains have at least one low level site that is structured different for men and women. And it matches sex identity, not necessarily the sex assigned at birth. Those findings were replicated, confirmed and greatly expanded. Whole new areas of study opened up in a number of fields. Just last year someone actually mapped out the differences in neuron connections of certain brain structures between the two sexes of 2mm long nematodes. They only have 400 neurons, which proves these differences are very basic indeed.

Other researchers over the last 20 years worked out which other brain sites and attributes are sex-dirmorphic, how & why they develop in utero (for humans; some species such as rats differentiate just after birth) , which genes are responsible and how they express, and so on. That has been matched by corresponding findings in endocrinology (hormones & the chemical functionality of receptors), genetics and developmental biology.

It comes down to this: there are 20+ known brain areas that are different for men and women. We know how and when they develop in the direction they do. And they are the structures underlying functions such as your sense of Self (damage it and you can't tell you from other) *and* the brain's internal, low level, hardwired map of the body. And guess what? They match sex/gender identity, not the sex assigned at birth based on one other body site that develops at a different time in utero, with different triggers.

Something to consider: You can damage or lose other parts of the body and still remain who you are. That doesn't work with the brain, so in a very real way it is *the* sex dimorphic part that determines what you are.

Biological Male = XY chromosomes

Biological Female = XX Chromosomes

This is another thing that just pisses me off. I don't hate anyone just because I'm taking up for the other side. Those girls have rights too. If someone who is a boy thinks they are a girl - that's not my problem and their problem shouldn't be forced on others either - like these girls. I don't care if this kid wants to dress like a girl 24/7, but he shouldn't get special treatment because he chooses to live this way. Use a damn bathroom to change if it's that important for him to dress and be a girl in public. If everyone demanded special treatment like this kid is getting, the world would be in one hell of a mess. If I had a child going to that school, I'd pull them out immediately. And before you say something else, if I had a child who was transgender, I would support them, however, I would also teach them that there is a time and a place to be who they want to be and if they are infringing on others' rights then that is not acceptable. There is no reason that this kid can't change in a bathroom and still be who he wants to be in public.